newbie

[bsplenden]

hi, i am new to killies... in fact, i have not even got my killies yet... want to do some research first...

can anyone provide me with links to websites that provide me with some good reading materials?

or feel free to tell me about your personal experience...

and lastly, i heard there are many types of killies available, and i read that some even live in hot springs! i am not sure how true that is, but i hope someone will be able to give me some ideas on what will be some good beginner killies to rear and breed... something that is colourful, easy to keep and breed.

thanks a lot!

[zmzfam]

Hello "what's your name"

Welcome to our little corner.

It is good that you want to do some research first before jumping into killies. A good beginners read AKA Beginner's Guide. Also Information from main site.

In fact if you do a google on killies, it will throw you some pretty interesting read.

BTW, please observe some house rules - Forum Rules and Forum Netiquette.

At the same time, make use of the 'Shift' key on your keyboard and capitalize your message where necessary. It makes for an easier reading.

Lastly, we appreciate it if you could sign off with your real name. We like to refer to friends that way.

[TyroneGenade]

Hello

You can go see my site too! Lots of info there!

tt4n

[bsplenden]

Hi,

I will try my best to abide by the forum rules. And i guess it will take me sometime before i will finish those articles. In the meantime, can anyone advice on some of the beginner strains? And also, where to get them?

I heard there is a LFS in Singapore at Telok Blangah Rise which will order the killies for you after you have selected them from a book. Does anyone know of this shop and is it good to get my first killies from there?

Thanks for your time.

IatFai

[zmzfam]

In the meantime, can anyone advice on some of the beginner strains? And also, where to get them?

IatFai,

I think you meant species not strain.

Some beginner killies which I could think of are :

For non-annuals:
Aphyosemion australe
Fundulopanchax gardneri

For annuals:
Nothobranchius rachovii

There are also other species which can be considered as easy but generally these are the more common ones.

On where to get them, you could post in the Trading Post sub-forum for their availability from the hobbyists here.

[nonamethefish]

I would add N. guentheri to the annuals list...and possibly N. korthausae

[bsplenden]

I think I am now rather familiar with the care of the fishes, breeding, and taking care of the frys after some reading. Thanks to the years of rearing freshwater fishes and breeding many different types of fish. So i am rather confident of rearing killies now...

The only problem is their scientific names. I am all confused now, and most websites only bomb me with the scientific names, but did not elaborate more on them. I have not been able to purchase any fish from members here as they seem very particular about me knowing latin.

I do understand the need to use the latin scientific names so as to prevent hybridisation between killies. But isn't it sufficient just to know what i am keeping? Or can anyone care to explain to me?

I am rather put off by these scientific names. I wish to keep my fish-keeping hobby simple, and I don't aim to memorize all their latin names, as I have enough of this in school.

[budak]

Just back from a talk by a member of the International Convention for Zoological Nomenclature, with some pointers:

The Linnaean binomial system for naming of animals and plants is, despite its initial hurdles for laymen, still the most systematic approach to making sure that every single creature has a name that:
- is unique to it;
- provides a guide to its distinguishing features;
- places it within a taxonomical context (genus and family); and
- is universally recognised by scientists from every nation, language and culture.

Because Latin is a "dead" language that doesn't change, it is used for naming. Otherwise, if every nation uses its own names for e.g. Nothobranchius rachovii, nobody will know what species exactly each other is talking about. And with are so damn many species out there (hundreds of killies, thousands of catfish, millions of beetles), the precise nomenclature of latin names has proven to be the most clear-cut way of recognising every creature.

Names are also vital for the conservation of species. Without formal descriptions, a species gets no protection from both national and transnational (e.g. CITES, Red book) conservation authorities. People involved in biotechnogy, horticulture, agriculture, fisheries, medicine and other fields dealing with living things also need the precision of a unique latin moniker for making sure they know what they are talking about.

It's often a big mental hurdle for newcomers to biological pursuits. But time and a process called mental osmosis are pretty well-proven to be sufficient and subtle lubricants for the internalisation of tongue-twisting names, even for scientific virgins (or babes for that matter)..... and more so, if one loves the creatures in question.

[bsplenden]

Just back from a talk by a member of the International Convention for Zoological Nomenclature, with some pointers:

The Linnaean binomial system for naming of animals and plants is, despite its initial hurdles for laymen, still the most systematic approach to making sure that every single creature has a name that:
- is unique to it;
- provides a guide to its distinguishing features;
- places it within a taxonomical context (genus and family); and
- is universally recognised by scientists from every nation, language and culture.

Because Latin is a "dead" language that doesn't change, it is used for naming. Otherwise, if every nation uses its own names for e.g. Nothobranchius rachovii, nobody will know what species exactly each other is talking about. And with are so damn many species out there (hundreds of killies, thousands of catfish, millions of beetles), the precise nomenclature of latin names has proven to be the most clear-cut way of recognising every creature.

Names are also vital for the conservation of species. Without formal descriptions, a species gets no protection from both national and transnational (e.g. CITES, Red book) conservation authorities. People involved in biotechnogy, horticulture, agriculture, fisheries, medicine and other fields dealing with living things also need the precision of a unique latin moniker for making sure they know what they are talking about.

It's often a big mental hurdle for newcomers to biological pursuits. But time and a process called mental osmosis are pretty well-proven to be sufficient and subtle lubricants for the internalisation of tongue-twisting names, even for scientific virgins (or babes for that matter)..... and more so, if one loves the creatures in question.

Hmm... Your explanation is very reasonable. But for newbie to killies like myself, I find it rather weird that people here refuses to sell me killies for the reason that I was unable to get the latin names correct. A few members here rejected my offer to buy their fishes based on the fact that I did not get the names correct. And they all ask me to read more...

And so, I went to read more articles, which all talks about the same thing. Care, breeding, feeding, incubating, etc. But after reading all these, I still know nuts about their latin names! While I have been able to identify a few latin names, I do not know what they mean, nor do i know how to pronounce them. So, I will still be unable to get any fishes...

While I am rather frustrated now that after spending the first few days of my school holidays in front of the computer, reading articles after articles on killies, I am not ready to give up yet.

However, I would like to ask for some assistance to get over with this latin hurdle, so that I can get my hands on my first killies. I am refraining from buying the the LFS as I am not sure whether those pairs sold in the LFS are hybrids or not. When I look at the female, all of them are colourless, and not a speck of colour on them. I wonder what they are... So as a total newbie, I am not willing to spend on savings on hybrids, instead, I will be getting the good ones from members here, that is, if I can get over with this latin lesson...

[budak]

Here it's where bloodlines come into play. Because there are so many closely-related species, as well as species with differing populations, some serious killie keepers want to preserve the original character and lineage of the wild fish as much as possible (especially since wild populations are under threat of habitat destruction). Wanton hybridising, lack of labelling, uncertain IDs, trade names that pretend to be scientific names... all these are popular with casual hobbyists but nightmares for breeders as well as scientists, and more so if the results are freely circulated everywhere.... where confusion or worse, intermingling with "pure" bloodlines occurs. I think there ARE LFS where surplus from local breeders are available....... but it looks like you will have to show that you understand people's concerns about nomenclature before the killies fall into your hands..

[bsplenden]

In the previous post, I have already understood the need for latin names. And I am very much willing to learn it.

But, the biggest problem for me is how to learn it. From websites? I have not been able to find any that properly explains the scientific names for these fishes. From books? I have been to the library, and only small sections of a book is dedicated to killies.

And can I have an explanation for one more thing? I do agree that knowing the scientific name is very much important. But is it that important for hobbyists to know what the latin names stand for? Is it not sufficient that we know the scientific name of the fish we are keeping, so that if we do sell it, we can sell it under the correct name, and that there will be no hybridising?

Thanks for taking the time to read and explain to a noob like me...

Iatfai.

[whuntley]

In the previous post, I have already understood the need for latin names. And I am very much willing to learn it.

But, the biggest problem for me is how to learn it. From websites? I have not been able to find any that properly explains the scientific names for these fishes. From books? I have been to the library, and only small sections of a book is dedicated to killies.

And can I have an explanation for one more thing? I do agree that knowing the scientific name is very much important. But is it that important for hobbyists to know what the latin names stand for? Is it not sufficient that we know the scientific name of the fish we are keeping, so that if we do sell it, we can sell it under the correct name, and that there will be no hybridising?

Thanks for taking the time to read and explain to a noob like me...

Iatfai.

Iatfai,

We are all newbies at something. I'm trying to repair a couple of bassoons and learn to play one. I find the fingering a nightmare, compared to the clarinets, saxes, etc. that I have played before.

I'd love to help reduce the confusion for you, but am not sure exactly what is causing the problem. Some folks have difficulty with pronouncing the names, but that isn't a big deal. If you have a pencil and paper handy you can always communicate that way.

You should hear the way some of our auctioneers mutilate the sounds at club and even convention auctions!

With killifish, we usually do not include the higher-order names, such as family, but do try to have the binomial (two) names of genus and species plus a non-latinized location, with a collection code where available.

Many atlases of killifish were started before a major re-naming started, so the genus name of a fish in Baensch may have been changed more recently. Likewise, a species name may be found to be a synonym of an earlier named species, so may be changed to fit the more accepted name.

The collection code never changes (as long as bags are clearly labelled, ) but the location is a bit of a problem. Many fish in the hobby come from major shipping centers, like Monrovia, Lagos, etc. and the locations attached are essentially meaningless. The wholesalers in those places may have bought fish collected from well-known sites, but never tell us the location for fear someone will usurp their source. They are also apparently very careless about mixing females, so their fish are very poor choices for breeding stock, in most cases.

Most of us prefer to get wild fish from known collectors, so we have some chance of getting a known species from a clearly identified location. In the US, collections since 1950 have been kept by Roger Langton and published as Wild Collections of Killifish. My latest edition covers 1950-2003 and is the 4th Edition. It is available from Roger and, I think, the AKA.

A most complete discussion of the topic is covered in Jean Huber's KilliData 2000 (or newer?). He also has a web page that is kept very up to date for the dedicated subscriber. Prof. Huber is a bit more willing to accept nomenclature changes and additions than is Dr. Ken Lazara, who writes the AKA nomenclature standard, Killifish Master Index which is in a 4th edition right now (available through the AKA). The species list from KMI4 can be found at the Arizona Rivulin Keeper site ( http://ark.aka.org/AList.htm ). See the AKA affiliates list to find a whole lot of such sites at www.aka.org. Pronouncing Latin names can be found in an article in the Cincinnatti site at http://www.cincikillies.org/sayit.htm.

That last site has a lot of good articles, as do many of the affiliate sites.

HTH

Wright

[stormhawk]

Okay here's an explanation of a "regular" killifish name.

For example:

Micromoema xiphophora "Isla Raton" RDB 92/22

In this case, Micromoema is the genus name, xiphophora is the species name, "Isla Raton" is the location name, RDB 92/22 is the collection code.

RDB here stands for Roger D. Brousseau. 92/22 means collected in the year 1992, collection/location number 22. FYI, this scientific name + location + collection code is for the Swordtail Killie. A Google search will throw up several pictures.

Note: Different collectors have different methods of appending location and codes to the fish they collect. It is absolutely necessary to maintain location codes to ensure that the population stays "pure". Species name will change, location and collection codes will not. :wink:
_____________

I hope this helps in letting you understand "standard" killifish nomenclature for us killie folk. :wink:

Hello Iat Fai, this was a previous post I made to answer questions from a newbie in another thread. I'm duplicating this post here to answer your query.

To make things simple for most of us (in fact many people don't bother with the scientific name..) there's a system with a 3 letter code whereby we identify species.

For example :

SJO - Fundulopanchax sjoestedti
AUS - Aphyosemion australe
XIP - Rivulus xiphidius
RAC - Nothobranchius rachovii

As you can see the 3 letter codes are derived from either the first 3 letters of the species name as in SJO from sjoestedti or a combination of letters from the species name should the code be taken by another species described earlier.

This is again information I posted earlier to answer another beginner's question in another thread. If you need help in learning what the names stand for, I'll be glad to assist you.

With killies it is not a must to remember the species name because they tend to change when scientists do a revision. What was once known as Cynolebias magnificus is now Simpsonichthys magnificus. It is rather confusing so I understand your problem perfectly.

What is necessary in killie keeping is to ensure that the hobbyist keeps the location and collection code intact. In doing so you prevent hybridising between different locations that may look a little different from each other. They can be the same species but may have a little difference in colour or perhaps slight differences in pattern.

[stormhawk]

and lastly, i heard there are many types of killies available, and i read that some even live in hot springs! i am not sure how true that is, but i hope someone will be able to give me some ideas on what will be some good beginner killies to rear and breed... something that is colourful, easy to keep and breed.

thanks a lot!

Yes they are species of killies that live in all sorts of environments. Those from the hot springs should be the desert killifish of America (Cyprinodon species) and also the Aphanius of the Meditteranean region.

What would be easy to keep and colourful would be Fundulopanchax gardneri "N'sukka" and Aphyosemion australe (any colour form). If you want the gardneri trios go down to Eco-culture and get your first trio from there. These are pure-bred by some of the hobbyists here so you're quite safe if you buy these. :wink:

[bsplenden]

Hi Wright,

My problem with latin names doesn't come from the pronounciation. But I think it is more of a problem because i don't know what it stands for. Let me give an example.

Simpsonichthys fulminantis 'Guanambi' BHS 95/12

So what does "Simpsonichthys" stand for? And so on...

I have also read somewhere that the number in the scientific names states the year in which the fish was collected. But why in this case, it is 95/12? Is "12" the month in which the fish was collected?

What about Simpsonichthys magnificus 'Itacarambi B7 ' ?

While in other freshwater fishes, the scientific name of fishes more or less are in the same format. Lets use a few casual examples. Sceleropages formosus , Astronotus occelatus , Tetraodon fahaka.

See, they all have a pattern. The generic name, followed by the species name.

But in the case of killies, there are like different formats, and its so long that i have to wonder which is the generic name, which is the species name. If i am not wrong, "BHS" is the collection code. But what is the collection code?

I hope I have pointed out my problem well enough for anyone of you kind experts our there to help me.

Thanks a lot for all the effort in helping me.

Iatfai.

[stormhawk]

Iat Fai, refer to my previous post and the sticky post I put up for Beginners.

[bsplenden]

What is necessary in killie keeping is to ensure that the hobbyist keeps the location and collection code intact. In doing so you prevent hybridising between different locations that may look a little different from each other. They can be the same species but may have a little difference in colour or perhaps slight differences in pattern.

Hmm... Thanks for all the help. Guess i know better now. I finally see some light. keke...

You mean that for killies, even if they are the same species, they might be slightly different in terms of look as they come from different locations?

[stormhawk]

Yes that is absolutely correct. Take for example the different populations of Nothobranchius rachovii.

Beira 98 - Orange-red base colouration with shimmering blue scales, black edged tail fin and a crescent shaped mark in the tail that's orange in colour I think.

MOZ 99/3 - Black to grey base colouration with shimmering silver scales, black edged tail fin and a crescent shaped mark in the tail that may look orange in colour.

So you see, the different populations of a single species can differ in terms of colouration and even body patterning. :wink:

[budak]

It's not just killies, but any organism with a wide distribution (and the potential for isolation) will exhibit some variance in phenotypic features. At some point, a particular regional variant would be considered a subspecies.... and where differences become considerable (even if the two populations can interbreed) and no natural intermingling is possible, a new species could well be designated. The rise of molecular biology and the trawling of DNA as a tool for taxonomy has led to the growing idea that many creatures currently designated as a single species, should actually be divided into wholly separate species.... after all, if just a 2% difference in the genome isn't significant, we should be considered the same species as chimps.

[turaco]

Hi IatFai,

I don't know much about Latin names too. What attracts you to killifish? It's their beauty no doubt. For me, I just concentrate on raising & breeding them..& will stick by their given names if I ever aquire any or pass them on to others. You learn more about their names along the way when your interest becomes strong. Learning more is good, but if it's gonna becomes a problem you will find this hobby stressful! Relax my friend, & get yourself started!