hatching brine shrimps=WHY

[justjoin]

hi

I had try to hatch brine shrimps eggs with the following BUT getting funny results:

Using a 1.5 litres plastic bottle as a hatchery & setup as shown in Mr Loh's website

water is about 1 litre in each setup.Using the same brine shrimps egg from the same container/batch(bought at kingfisher-i am sure the eggs is OK,good with 80-% hatch rate=imported from USA)

Set up A :
1) Using Reserve Omosis water with 2 teaspoon "specially treated" aquarium salt(brandcean free)
THE hatching rate is good

Setup B
2) Using Tap water 2 teaspoon specially treated" aquarium salt(brandcean free)
THE hatching rate is very BAD

Setup C
3) Using Tap water 1 TABLESPOON specially treated" aquarium salt(brandcean free)
THE hatching rate is very BAD like setup B

setup D
4) Using Tap water water 2 teaspoon TABLESALT
THE hatching rate is very BAD liike setup B

My question here is why setup B, C & D hatch rate is so bad?
Supposingly setup B & C should be getting good result too.

As for setup D, the hatch rate should be OK or average but the hatching time should be longer than those using aquarium salt right?
BUT my expereiment showed that setup D hatched at the same time as setup C & B-by 20th hours

All my experiement were done at the same time & result compared at the same time too. I can see all setup started to hatched on the 20th hours.Setup A getting more hatch rate by 24th hours whereas setup B,C & D not much different from the 20th hours.

thank you
adrian

[RonWill]

Adrian,
Look at your setups again and tell me if you see something in common.

While some are going to view this as 'circumstantial evidence', let me relate an ongoing experience with a batch of known-good BS eggs.

To keep things simple, I involved only 4 variables;
A: Aged or anti-chloramine treated water
B: Straight tap water
C: 'Red Sea' marine salt
D: No frill coarse aquarium salt

Combos A+C & A+D returned similar results as your "Setup A" (A+C has higher yield).
Combos B+C & B+D... same as your Setups B, C & D.

Salt is approx 1.5 Chinese soup spoon to one litre of water. Hatchout is approx 16hrs. If I used straight tap water, the BBS seem to crash 6 hrs after hatching and the whole batch can be discarded. Thriving hatch till the next day, if I used Prime treatment.

Another observation: Because of the hatch rate problem, I tend to feed alot of daphnia these days. Their packing water can stink till high heaven but if I used slow aeration, there's still plenty left for next day's feeding.

Experiment: I sieved out a spoonful of very lively daphnia with coffee filter and placed half in a container with their stinky water, half into another container of straight tap water. In approx an hour, those in sparkling 'Newater' are mostly dead and settled to the base of the container.

For a while, Kenny was 'known' as 'he who can't hatch BBS' (even if his life depended on it). My results are subjective but I'll leave you to conduct further experiments and arrive at your own conclusion.

[jerseyjay]

I'm not sure about your water parameters but this is what I do

1 tsp salt
1/2 tsp baking soda (KH)
1/2 epsom salt (GH)
1/4 tsp eggs
300ml water
bubble it at 75F or warmer

[whuntley]

Does no one ever use a chlorine test kit?

I have found that bbs hatching is pretty tolerant of simple chlorine in the water, but chloramine is another story.

The chlorine acts as an antibacterial (a good), but is being driven off quickly (by hatch time or soon after) by the vigorous bubbling required to keep 100% of the eggs in suspension. [Those on the sides and bottom never hatch.]

The chloramines are stable enough to hang around and kill the nauplii. Without a chlorine test kit, how can you tell if this is the factor in "newater" that is the culprit?

Wright

[PohSan]

For no reason, my brine shrimp failed to hatch for continuously 3 days. For every failed hatch, I discarded the water and make a new seawater mix with .... tap water. I have been using same amount of salt and water, same sea salt and tapwater for more than 1 year without any problem.

On the 3rd failure tonight, I decided to add in a few drops of Prime, let the hatchery bubbling for half hour before I added in the brine shrimp egg. I hope that I will have some BBS tomorrow for my staving Fundulopanchax gardneri 'Misaje' fry.

Regards,
Ong Poh San

[whuntley]

The problem with using Prime (or Amquel) is that it, alone, is rather good at killing small critters.

After Mach Fukada pointed out that his Daphnia cultures were being killed by decloraminators, I ran tests on Amquel, Prime and Ammo Lock 2. All are a bit similar chemically and are formaldehyde-like compounds.

Daphnia, mosquito larvae, most infusoria and even tough Ostracods are killed by the dechloraminators. [I didn't really test Artemia nauplii (bbs), but see no reason they should be granted an exemption.]

I used to use formalin to kill hydra, but when I ran out, one time, I used Amquel with near-equal effectiveness!

When I had chloramine in Fremont, all my bbs hatching water was carbon filtered. I use good eggs and expect good hatches all the time. I would avoid trying to hatch them in water with chloramine.

The way you know you have chloramine is so simple as to be trivial. Test for chlorine, right out of the tap. If the test is positive for chlorine, aerate the water vigorously for 24 hours and test again. If you have only chlorine, the test will indicate none. If you have all chloramine, it will read nearly the same as yesterday's test. You might get an intermediate reading, because not all the chlorine was 100% bound to ammonia at the water plant.

Wright

[PohSan]

Daphnia, mosquito larvae, most infusoria and even tough Ostracods are killed by the dechloraminators. [I didn't really test Artemia nauplii (bbs), but see no reason they should be granted an exemption.]

Guess my fry will have to take powdered food for one more day, let me check on the hatch rate tomorrow.

Anyway, Ronnie, now we know of an alternative way to kill all those hydra. :wink:

Regards,
Ong Poh San

[whuntley]

The anti-helmentics are safer and better. Formalin is an old outmoded method. Try flubendazole.

Wright

[justjoin]

hi all

thank you for all your valuable input.

I will try some experiment & post an update here.

by the way, may i know what is "prime" & is it available at local fish shop in singapore

thks
adrian

[stormhawk]

Adrian, Prime here refers to Seachem Prime. It is sold at most LFS with a large range of products. As Wright has pointed out, it will kill most small critters like daphnias so it may be fatal to BBS as well.

I've not had any problems using the water that comes out of my taps and have hatched eggs successfully using the salt from Ocean Free. Since I switched to Red Sea marine salt mix, I've been getting better hatches.

The problem may either lie with the composition of your tap water as already pointed out several times in other threads or the quality of the eggs. Chloramine levels differ from area to area and may be more higher in some towns or even districts. As for egg quality, many eggs bought locally at the shops are usually repacked from large cans of eggs. These eggs, if not stored properly at the LFSes will result in bad hatches on occasions. Could you share with us how you store your BBS eggs at home?

Another tip to getting a better hatch is to leave the eggs floating at the surface of the hatchery water. This allows the eggs to rehydrate, thereby increasing the hatch rate tremendously. I leave the eggs floating for about 15 to 20 minutes before I stir them into the water column. Then I begin the aeration. The BBS usually hatch within 24 hours or less on warmer days.

[stormhawk]

I think this thread should be moved to Non-Killie Section. :wink:

[keehoe]

Hi all, i had terrible result when i first started without increasing water PH. I have been using tap water directly always.

I lower the amount of salt to one tea spoon (about a lump of 10cents coin size)per 75% fill of 1.5 container. (About 800ml) I measure this before, 2 teaspoon of fine grain aquarium salt is far too high.

I also added about 10 drop of Sera PH-PLUS. The result is fantastic, i can harvest in 20hours. (used to be 48 hours).

All these for my cute baby killies.

[PohSan]

Hi Keehoe.

I also added about 10 drop of Sera PH-PLUS. The result is fantastic, i can harvest in 20hours. (used to be 48 hours).

I can harvest the BBS within 20 hours with no water conditioner added. 48 hours is bit too long.

Anyway, here is a quick update of my hatch rate after adding some prime to remove any excessive chlorine or chloramine. Take note that I am recycling the seawater mix. Hatching time is around 24 hours:

1st day and 2nd day - hatch rate is poor at about 50%. Judged by amount of sinking and floating egg. No dead BBS found.

3rd day (today) - almost 100 % hatch rate.

Regards,
Ong Poh San

[RonWill]

1st day and 2nd day - hatch rate is poor at about 50%. Judged by amount of sinking and floating egg. No dead BBS found.

3rd day (today) - almost 100 % hatch rate

Poh San, your observation matches mine and I'm moving this thread where it belongs.

Adrian, how's your hatch rate coming along?

[timebomb]

I'm using the same brand of brine shrimp eggs as Adrian. In fact, the can of eggs I have is from the same carton as his. I know this for a fact because I took my can from the carton Kingfisher brought in from the USA.

I suspect the reason Adrian has poor hatch rates has got something to do with the salt he's using. I don't want to get sued so let's just say I don't trust any product with the initials OF. I use Red Sea salt to hatch my brine shrimp eggs and I never add anything else to the water. I never have problems. I took this picture a few hours ago:



Loh K L

[Green Baron]

Kwek Leong,
How long can you keep the BBS and do you start from scratch for the next hatch ?

[timebomb]

Gan,

I don't keep the BBS. I feed them all to the fish when I collect them from the hatchery. I've heard you can keep them alive for several days if you leave them in the fridge but I've never tried it.

I hatch a new batch every other day. What I find is important is that the hatchery must be cleaned thoroughly after every collection. A layer of scum forms on the sides of the hatchery and this can cause the culture to crash.

Even if you don't keep Killies, baby brine shrimps are great food for small tropical fishes. Unlike other live foods, they don't come with parasites. And every fish gets to eat some during feeding time.

Loh K L

[whuntley]

The big advantage of bbs as a food is that they are high in highly unsaturated fatty acids (HUFAs) when first hatched. After 6 to 8 hours, they molt to a stage called Instar 2. When they do that, they lose a major portion of their nutritional value, and it is way down on subsequent molts where they develop a mouth and need to start filter feeding.

It is best to use them in the first few hours after hatching, or wait a day or so and feed them some rich foods that essentially loads their gut with nutritious stuff, before feeding to your fish. You can delay the first molt by refrigeration, to some extent, but very early use is still the best value for what you paid for.

Basically, this means I hatch a smaller amount, but every day, so I have freshly-hatched nauplii always available.

How do you tell when they have molted? Under a magnifying glass it is pretty easy. When first hatched, they are wider than they are long. After most of the yolk energy has been used up (later stages after molting), they tend to be longer and not so wide.

Wright

[Green Baron]

I just have my 1 batch of BBS and the hatch rate is close to 100% !
The eggs are from Kwek leong. I use 50ml of tap water and 50ml of water from my fish tank which has a PH of 7.8, and 1 tea spoon of 'Wonder Salt - Conditioner for Aquarium and Pond' which I bought from LFS at Bukit Timah Plaza.

My fish love the BBS but due to the strong current in the tank, a lot of the BBS got swep away before the fish can eat them. Do I put in smaller portion (by drops) or will the fish hunt the BBS down ?

[stormhawk]

CW, turn off the filter if possible when you're squirting the BBS straight into the tank. That ensures that none get swept around and die of exhaustion before the fish can get them. Feed in moderation and only enough so that the fish will finish them in a single sitting.