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Thread: No harvesting of eggs

  1. #1

    No harvesting of eggs

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    Hi all

    this is my first post to this great site

    had been reading for sometime after i got my killies
    the- Fundulopanchax Gardneri Nsukka as a gift
    from my friend

    a trio - 2 females and a male approximately 4 months old

    the setup is a one-feet tank
    with lots of hornworts and java moss and a lovely flowerpot
    with peat moss all over the floor of the tank

    question is
    1) in the case of the killies lay eggs, can i let the killies eggs be?
    (god knows where they lay their eggs....hornwort,peatmoss etc)
    Call it natural selection.What is the success rate?

    2) how to see that the killies are mature for sexing?

    Im very new to this hobby
    need some guidance

    Thanks
    Rob

  2. #2
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    Re: No harvesting of eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by pennylane
    Hi all

    this is my first post to this great site
    Welcome, we have a lot of fun here, Rob. Where are you located? [I was too lazy to check your profile.]

    had been reading for sometime after i got my killies
    the- Fundulopanchax Gardneri Nsukka as a gift
    from my friend

    a trio - 2 females and a male approximately 4 months old
    Mature enough to breed, but I have had poor results with trios of GAR. One female is busy laying eggs with the male, and the other is just as busy eating every one as soon as it is pushed into the peat or mop.

    the setup is a one-feet tank
    with lots of hornworts and java moss and a lovely flowerpot
    with peat moss all over the floor of the tank

    question is
    1) in the case of the killies lay eggs, can i let the killies eggs be?
    (god knows where they lay their eggs....hornwort,peatmoss etc)
    Call it natural selection.What is the success rate?

    2) how to see that the killies are mature for sexing?
    The males are very colorful and the females quite bland and lacking in significant markings. Sex is usually clear by a couple of months or less. The male has bright fin edging in all unpaired fins, while females have a few reddish brown spots at most. Males have blue or green irridescence with bright red spots and bars on their sides. Tail, anal and dorsal bands can vary from blue-white to yellow outside a dark red or nearly black band.

    The eggs can be laid in the peat, on the moss, or (maybe best) in a sunken acrylic yarn mop in a dark color (makes eggs easier to find).

    Predation by parents and older siblings is severe, so it is better to collect eggs for hatching elsewhere. You could get a survivor or two, but I would not count on it.

    Im very new to this hobby
    need some guidance
    First bit of advice is that the forum moderators will insist on good punctuation and grammar, here. It is essential because so many of us have different native languages. Clear communications, without chat-room shorthand, is a big step in the right direction.

    Second is to not try to get eggs if you have all males. :wink: Do you have a real trio?

    Third, is to spawn over yarn mops. You make those with vat-dyed acrylic or nylon yarn wrapped around a book at least 50 times, and better 100. Tie together at one end of the book and then cut through all strands at the other end. I like to microwave the mop in a container of water, just to the point of boiling. Then a good rinse under the cold faucet. This removes any residual dye or cleaning agents and makes the mop sink quickly.

    Fourth would be to find a temporary container to hold the spare female, and alternate them with the male every few days.

    Harvest eggs from the mop every week (or more often) and put them in clean tank water in a plastic Petri dish or covered food storage container with about 1/4" of water in the bottom. Keep covered, but change the water on the eggs every day for a week and then every few days until they hatch. Clean fingers work for me, but others suggest tweezers for handling the eggs. A few hours after they are laid, they are very tough, but new ones will pop when you try to squeeze them to remove. You can see the embryo develop and when the eyes are fully formed, with a gold ring around the iris, they are about ready to hatch (3 weeks or so?).

    Last, but not least, is to feed rich live foods. I use CA blackworms a lot, and newly-hatched baby brine shrimp. You can get tubifex worms and they are good conditioning foods for breeders, too. Frozen bloodworms are good if they will take them. It takes a lot of good fatty acids to make healthy eggs, so richen the diet if all the eggs seem to die and fungus.

    Good luck, Rob.

    Wright
    01 760 872-3995
    805 Valley West Circle
    Bishop, CA 93514 USA

  3. #3
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    Welcome Rob,

    Thanks for signing off with your real name. It sometimes pisses us off when new members decided not to signed off with their real names.

    Wright has outlined the standard method for you to get started with lots of eggs. However, I have a tankful of Fundulopanchax gardneri* which I let them breed naturally. You will get frys every now and then but it will not be as much compared to picking the eggs from the mop and incubating them separately.

    You could get a survivor or two, but I would not count on it.
    Others method might vary but in my natural setup - full of moss, hornworts and floating java ferns - I do get frys and they grow up to become adults. What I noticed is that feed them well and they'll rewad you well.

    Another advice to you will be to get rid of the peat at the bottom of the tank. I assumed that the peat is evenly spread out at the bottom and not limited to a container? Too thick and the peat can get anaerobic. Planted tank gravels would be a better choice.

    Happy killies keeping!

    *Noticed the italics for the species name? Species name are italized while the collection or population code remains in the normal font.
    Zulkifli

  4. #4
    A very very big thank you to Wright and zmzfam

    With friendly and wise guys like you, you can be very
    sure I will be visting this forum often and
    be very passionate in this killie keeping hobby.

    I had meddled successfully with apisto breeding (relatively
    easier and not so complicated) and this is my first time with
    killies breeding.

    My peat moss is thinly distributed at the bottom of the tank
    So isit recommended to remove the peat moss?

    I do have thick peat moss in my flower pot inside the tank.

    My, killies are very big eaters.
    They get very good servings of live bloodworms, tubifex
    worms and live brine shrimp 3 times a day and they
    LOVE it! :P

    And yes, I do have a real trio.
    2 females and 1 male.

    As instructed, I will remove 1 female and alternate
    the females in the tank every few days

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by pennylane
    My peat moss is thinly distributed at the bottom of the tank So isit recommended to remove the peat moss?
    Rob, I would remove the peat moss from the tank. It doesn't serve any purpose if you already have it in the flower pot. The Fundulopanchax gardneri's are voracious eaters. They never know when to stop eating. I have some with bellies so huge they look like they're going to explode If you're not sure if yours is a trio, take a look at these pictures.

    As instructed, I will remove 1 female and alternate
    the females in the tank every few days
    The wonderful thing about the forum, ask a question and you can have many different answers I wouldn't remove the female if I were you. Let them be. If there are 2 females in the tank, chances are neither of them will be sexually harrassed to the point of death. Whereas if there's only one.....

    Loh K L

  6. #6
    Haha

    You know, its the first time Im having a trio
    Never had it for apistos before
    Its kind of like a new world out there

    The female bellies are very big
    Im quite worried how much their their bellies can fill up to

    Reminds me of balloons
    too much air and POOM! it goes

  7. #7
    Hi all!

    You will not believe it! The killies actually spawned!!!
    Didnt expect this to happen so soon. And I didnt even realise it.

    Saw 3 fries today whilst feeding my killies (Think their siblings
    whilst in their eggs must had been eaten up by the parents.. )
    There should be more as i believe the females can do better
    then laying so few eggs. This is natural selection i guess....
    They are hiding amonst the thick hornworts in the tank.
    God knows how many more eggs are there inside the tank

    Anyway, I am totally over the moon as this is the 1st time
    breeding killies and actually had succeeded which is actually
    nothing to you experts out here. Probably Im making a hill
    out of a mole hill. Hehe

    Now Im adding brine shrimps into the tank for the fries to eat

    Questions:
    1) Should I remove the fries? Im really afraid the parents will
    eat up the fries (do take note Im having trios)

    Im thinking of putting them into a small transparent breeding tank
    inside my 3 feet planted tank

    2) Or should i let the fries be and let nature takes its course
    or should i call it Natural Selection

    3) Also, now I holding back on water change as Im afraid of
    disposing eggs accidentally in this manner. Should I temporary
    suspend any water change?

    Please advise

  8. #8
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    Pennylane, Congratulation!

    I think for a start you and your fish is doing very well. Maybe you can try clean up the tank so that the fish would only lay egg in the breeding flower pot. You will have to pick all the egg out from the pot every 3days or so.

    My notho. lay about 20eggs everyday so i suppose yours too. You will have much more fry if you hatch the egg away from their parents. Then you can feed the fry effectively.

    Some of us will have to feed them with vinegar eel, infusoria and microworm which might not be the best choice of food for their parents.

    In my opinion, do not breed small fry in big tank. It would be difficult for them to find the BBS that you thrown in. I gave my one and only fry about 3cm x 3cm x 1cm space to find food until they are 1cm in size.

    I suppose what you did might be the best choice or else you will ended up with tons of fry all looking at you for food. This is specially true for non-annual. But becareful as sibling would eat each other too. It is harder for fry to escape the mouth from their sibling.

  9. #9
    Hi KeeHoe,

    One thing for sure, Im not too sure if my killie adults lay their eggs
    in the pot in the first place. The whole tank is covered with hornwort
    and the eggs might just be laid there. Its like a guessing game.The eggs
    could be anywhere...

    Im feeding frozen tubifex worms (for the parents) and lots of baby brine shrimps (forthe fries) into the tank. Hopefully they stay off the eggs
    and concentrate on their buffet of food which should keep them full.

  10. #10
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    I think the fish will prefer to layegg in the flower pot. Not sure if your flower pot is suitable. I prefer to breed them saparately, so that i have better control of what they eat. When the egg first hatch, the fry can't even swim. I don't suppose they know how to runaway from their parents.

    Eventually some will survife, might not be the strongest but luckiest.

    For me, i fill my flowerpot with 1cm deep of rough (not fine) sand and i harvest once per week (mine is Notho, with 4-6week incubation). Take me about 20minutes to pack all the egg into plastic container.

    Process: Take out the breeding pot with water inside. Use my palm to cover the top and shake. In quick movement pour the water together with egg as soon as i stop shaking and lifted my palm. Fill the pot up with water again and repeat the step. After 3 or 4 times. Almost all egg will ended up in the tray where i keep all the water that shake out of the pot.

    The tray wil have all the egg and a little bit of sand. Then i will use a turkey baster to suck the egg out and place them in dried peat moss.
    Next time i would try pour the peat moss over the filtered egg container and hand mix them into 5 smaller container for incubation. That way i can complete the task in less than 10minutes.

  11. #11
    Hehe
    Found some eggs (quite visible i must say) attached to the
    java moss in the flower pot

    Now i had put the eggs with the java moss in a container with some water from the tank

    Do you think its ok?
    Will the eggs hatch?

    Hmm.....wonder if the eggs had been fertilized.....

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pennylane
    Now i had put the eggs with the java moss in a container with some water from the tank

    Do you think its ok?
    Will the eggs hatch?
    Rob, for most Fundulopanchax species, it'll take between 10~14days at 28 ºC, before you see fry.

    Fertile eggs remain clear or orangy transulent while bad eggs turn opal white and becomes fuzzy balls.

    Isolating the egg-laden moss to another container works fine. Personally, I prefer to use the mop. Drip dry and pack into a plastic bag. Wet 2 weeks from collection date and force hatch the rest. That way, I'm caring for a containerful of fry rather than a miserable few.

    As far as I can tell, you're off to a fine start. Keep us updated on your journey.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Good thinking, Java moss provide more Oxygen for the egg to hatch

  14. #14
    [The Fundulopanchax gardneri's[/i] are voracious eaters. They never know when to stop eating. I have some with bellies so huge they look like they're going to explode ]

    If you read my earlier post, you will note i am new to killifish so some of my questions may seem silly, but i had to ask this question after reading this post. I raise african cichlids and i know from experience(unfortunatly) that if I overfeed my cichlids they will be sure to develop "bloat" eventually. Is this not true for killifish? Do I need to worry about over feeding?

    Thanks,

    Steve

  15. #15
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    Steve,

    Bloat or dropsy is not basically an overfeeding disease. It can result from the bad water conditions that overfeeding sometimes cause, but it is invariably an infection, I think.

    Some species (or strains) are far more likely to be susceptible to infection. I once had a strain of Fundulopanchax filamentosus where end of life was most often following a bloating, for most individuals but certainly the females. It seemed they all died of it after about three years (except for the ones I ignorantly killed by leaving lead plant anchors in an acidic tank ).

    Most killies are very resistant to it, if given even half-way decent water conditions.

    Wright
    01 760 872-3995
    805 Valley West Circle
    Bishop, CA 93514 USA

  16. #16
    So in short, weekly water changes is a must to prevent bad
    water conditions and feed moderately right?

    Rob

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by twiztedcyster
    I raise african cichlids and i know from experience(unfortunatly) that if I overfeed my cichlids they will be sure to develop "bloat" eventually. Is this not true for killifish? Do I need to worry about over feeding?
    Steve,

    Overfeeding is not necessarily a bad thing as many breeders who raise Discus and Guppies are known to do that to juvenile fish. They force-feed their fish in the belief that underfed fish will be stunted. I know of Guppy breeders who feed their fish 16 times a day. That would be about equivalent to feeding once every hour, considering that there's no feeding when its dark.

    As for bloat, I think it only happens when the fish are fed with too much dry food which sorts of expands when it's in the fish stomach. Golfish are highly prone to bloat which I think is more commonly known as "air bladder disease" or something. Hobbyists who keep Goldfish often feed food pellets to their fish. Soaked in water, such pellets can expand and cause the stomachs of the fish to bloat.

    Rob,

    I've seen it too many times not to believe this but as far as I know, the Fundulopanchax gardneri's won't eat their fry. I keep many adult F. gardneri's in a planted tank and on many occasions, I've seen small fry swimming among the adults and they don't seem to be in any danger of being eaten even when the adults were hungry. In your tank, chances are the eggs are everywhere. There's no reason for the fish to lay in your pot only when they are such horny creatures. It's like saying one must find a bed before one can make love to another. If you're in the mood like healthy fish usually are, you do it anywhere and at any time

    Loh K L

  18. #18
    Thanks timebomb!

    You had really set my heart at ease! This is good news especially
    when its near the weekend. Haha

    Im going to leave the fries and their parents to what it is now.

    Gosh, this baby producing/egg hatching rate is pathetic in this case of the adults not eating their eggs and kids. Haha

    Just a few fries so far. Hope the trio adopt the "more the merrier" mentality to produce more babies

  19. #19
    UPDATE:

    There were a few fries as to what I mentioned before. Somehow,
    only 2 survived and now goodness me! they are almost 3/4 the
    size of their parents. It must be because of the good food like
    brineshrimps and live bloodworm i added in. And they are such
    voracious eaters, even better then their parents.

    It seems the 2 survivors are females

    hmmmmm wonder whose smart idea is this to leave the females
    unscathed. I guess it must be papa killie's idea
    He should be happy now.1 male to 4 females. Horny fellow :P

    Anyway, is there any relation of the sexes of the fries with relation
    to the water parameters? My water ph is a constant 6

    Regards
    Rob

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