Late Stage Belly Sliding

[stormhawk]

Hello fellas, I have a problem. What causes young fry to develop the belly-slider condition after several weeks of growth?

I have some young Simp. notatus "Alvorada do Norte" fry growing up in a plastic tank filtered by a sponge filter with little turbulence in the water. What boggles me is that out of the 10 fry that are growing up, 3 have died and the rest of them is beginning to belly-slide. Only 1 is swimming normally and that is the biggest fella among them.

I fed them and the rest of the fish with some BBS recently and they fed quite well. It was only after the BBS feeding that the notatus fry suddenly developed the condition. Right now I'm feeling quite perplexed because the other fry that were fed on the BBS are very healthy and having good appetites. Its only these fellas that are showing this problem.

[stormhawk]

Found 4 more dead, now down to 3 survivors from the original 10. Out of the 3, 2 are still belly-sliding and 1 is the sole healthy swimming fry. I really need help on this.

[whuntley]

Untergasser suggests bacterial infection of the exit orfice of the air bladder keeps it open and makes the fish sink.

The treatment is for a veterinarian only and requires injection of trimethoprim or that combined with a sulfa drug like sulfamethoxazole.

That's a tough call for smaller babies.

The primary cause, he indicates, is a sudden temperature drop. 3-5C is enough to cause it, apparently.

Wright

[stormhawk]

That's odd. The fry weren't subjected to sudden temperature drops. Thanks for the info though Wright. :wink:

I'm still perplexed. The rest of the fry from other species were also fed with the same batch of BBS and given the same equal amount of care and feeding. In fact the growth rates of the fry from the other species are starting to pick up and some have started to show some body markings. What I'm wondering is what went wrong with the notatus.

When this particular group started the belly-sliding problem, that was already bad enough. What was worst was when they started dropping like flies.

[whuntley]

Temperature shock is the primary, but certainly not the only cause.

Basically, they likely contracted a bacterial infection, internally, that is tough to treat. It may be that particular species is more sensitive to the bug in question. Use caution to isolate it, tho.

Untergasser also warns that the bacteria causing swim-bladder diseases are particularly likely to develop immunity to treatment. He says to not use it often, and that may be why he feels a veterinarian is mandatory.

My personal experience is that deep infections of the internal organs are very, very difficult to cure. No bath or even food can get the medicine to the site with enough concentration to really work. YMMV.

Injecting baby fish with the right dose is a daunting task.

Wright

[TyroneGenade]

I do not think that killifish have an "the exit orfice of the air bladder". If I recall correctly their swim bladder has no connection to the outside world and has to be filled with air from the blood (which may be why oxygen tablets seem to help reduce belly-sliders on hatching).

If they do get a bacterial infection then the bacteria have to move across from the gut, through the tissue to the swim bladder. The temperature hypothesis sounds more sensible... were the fish ny chance in a cold draft?

For what ever reason, late onset belly-sliding is irreversable for killies from my experiance.

They they continue to die suggests that there is an additional problem. Belly-sliders---even late onset ones---can persist for a long time and spawn. It doesn't normally result in death.

Regards

[stormhawk]

I'm now down to the final two. Hopefully these two don't die on me. [-o< Here's a picture as a memory and also as a size comparison.



I see one white round thingy near the area around the locality words, it looks alot like an egg. The last belly-slider is the fella to the top of the other fish. The one with the belly viewable, is the normal and healthy fella.

[ruyle]

Jian Yang, have you checked its serotinin and norepinephrine levels? It
looks awfully depressed. Effexor, Paxil, Lexapro, might just put a spring
in its "step." :wink: Yeah, this is not helpful and I feel for you since I'm
going through some puzzling fish deaths: my rainbows (the tenellus) are
shimmying with their tails pointed towards the bottom of the tank and their
nose pointed upwards as they try to swim towards the surface, then sink
I'm down to 2 healthy fish now, out of 8. I have the temp at 75-76F and the other inhabitants are just fine in the "mother tank."

[whuntley]

Glugea

http://www.killienutz.com/articles/glugea_treatment.htm

Wright

[stormhawk]

Bill, thanks for the serotinin bit but I still don't know what that is.

I'm having the clamped fin shimmying tail downwards in two tanks - namely my Simp. hellneri and the notatus fry. In actual fact my eggersi Rufiji River were also hit by the same problem. I did a water change and added some salt for the eggersi container and they bounced back. The hellneri and notatus didn't.

I don't think it's Glugea. I have a feeling that they might have contracted some bacterial disease that may have selectively hit some of them. I've taken out the diseased individuals and have placed them in a treatment container with fresh water and some salt added in. Hopefully they pull through but hopes are bleak. I saw some dead bodies already.

The eggersi are defying all odds. From a 50% shimmying batch, all have rebounded back very well and are really fat right now. In fact I can see some hints of red on the males. They're really surprising me. At least I have a cause for cheer because the eggersi are doing real well, even the late bloomers have grown quite a bit. Including them, the Simp. sp. "Urucuia" fry are also growing up quite quickly and I can see one male colouring up nicely. :wink:

[TyroneGenade]

SAAs do not do well on a diet of fatty high protein foods like tubifex. Cease and desist. Switch to daphnia and spiruline flake and keep with the bbs. I susepct your fish hace picked up tummy trouble from the tubifex and the infection has caused inflammation of the gut and swim bladder.

There was a thread devoted to this on the old AUNZZA list many moons back where people were having a rough time keeping their SAAs alive on bloodworm. They used to bloat and die. Once they had switched to spirulina and less nutrient rich foods all was well.

About the Ps. tennellus, have you acquired any guppies lately? Do several BIG water changes and hope for the best. Push the salt up to 2 tsp/gallon and then to 3 (provided you have enough calcium etc... in the water) and raise the temp to about 82°F. Your fish are battling a viral or bacterial infection and they need to up their metabolism to fight it. I would suggest you try spawn them ASAP.

I do not think the fish have Glugea. In young fish, it triggers a wasting a disease with sunken bellies... I never had belly-sliders during my Glugea episode 2 years back.

Regards

[stormhawk]

Hi everyone,

With regards to Glugea, all I've read is that it causes some lumps to form on the surface of the bodies. I don't see this symptom in young fish. What causes it to trigger off the wasting disease? I've had this wasting problem with some fish, even though they've been the best of foods.

[whuntley]

The white egg-like thing was what prompted my Glugea suggestion.

I only encountered it once, and that was years ago. As I recall, the fish died young and never looked lumpy. If it got to that point, it was very mature Nothos, but the only way I could usually ID it was to squash out the gut contents of the dead young fish that had it. The white "pearls" were unmistakable, a bit larger and more opaque than eggs.

I don't recall belly-sliding as an accompaniment, but internal bacterial infections (e.g., belly sliding, wasting disease, etc.) are common companions of any gut parasite, so...?????

Just an idle thought.

The babies are not born with it, but must be infected by resting parasites in the peat that hatch when they do. Before the flubendazole cure, Robert Nhan saved one species by carefully moving the new-hatched babies to new water, without letting more than dampness from their hatch water transfer with them. I think it worked OK. Tedious process, tho, lacking certainty.

Actual sickness symptoms seemed to lag hatching by some weeks, again like the subject fish.

Do the squash test before ruling out Glugea. It's a real problem unless treated properly.

Wright

[stormhawk]

On the squashing bit, I don't mind doing it but the thing is, all the dead bodies were thrown away already. I'm keeping a close eye on both the notatus and hellneri for they're the most fragile of the 4 batches of fry with me.

I'll see what I can find should any of the fry die within the next few days. As it is I've already lost 3 of the hellneri. I think at least 1 or 2 more will follow suit. Good news is that the smaller fry are healthy, feeding well and swimming normally. Bad news, the larger fry are the ones that are looking sick.

Wright, you mentioned the part about the resting parasites in the peat. Would this arise from a lack of proper preparation (boiling etc.) of the peat material prior to it being placed as a spawning medium? In this case on the part of the breeder.

[whuntley]

WE originally spread Glugea around by breeding infected fish and collecting their eggs. The cysts survived with the eggs and infected the next generation. Yes, that's the original breeder's fault, but Glugea can be a slow killer, so he may have not even been aware of it.

Prevention and cure beat the heck out of blame, in my book, anyway.

Wright

PS. If it is Glugea you need to establish a reliable source of flubendazole or whatever the proper cure is. If your local vet flunks the test, try Dr. Chas. Harrison on the Killietalk list, as I think he can send it to you for nominal charges to cover his costs.

[stormhawk]

Hi Wright, did some searching and came across this link on a Japanese killie keeper's site. Used a web translator and got the following link. More or less it says that the best cure is an anti-helminthic. I take it that this refers to Levamisole since there was a reference to a medication that gets rid of roundworms.

Glugea - Kem's Killifish Room

Looks like a real nasty disease. From the information on the page, it seems that annuals like Nothos and Simpsonichthys are more subsceptible to this disease.

Apart from that I was thinking that it could also have arose as a result of feeding the actual breeding stock with live foods caught from a wild source.

[whuntley]

Hi Jianyang,

Flubendazole was the one that stopped it cold in the US. The link I posted earlier tells about that era.

http://www.killienutz.com/articles/glugea_treatment.htm

Wright

[RonWill]

...More or less it says that the best cure is an anti-helminthic. I take it that this refers to Levamisole since there was a reference to a medication that gets rid of roundworms

In that case, Fenbendazole and Flubendazole (5% Flubenol) will work as well.

[TyroneGenade]

In my experiance N. ugandensis is the Glugea mine-canary. It took two weeks between the index case and ugandensis popping off in a very gross fashion...

My index case (one first diagnosed/suspected) was a brood of kafuensis. At about 6 weeks they began to stop eating, get thinner and just die regardless what I did. By the time they were diagnosed the ugandensis had explodes with little white nodules all over their head and body (this was what kind of gave me the hint: Glugea). I originally got it from an importation of N. flammeus peat. I used the same tub to wet the kafuensis peat and thats how they got it. :-(

As I said before, I don't think you have Glugea. You ahve probably brought in some or other bacterial or protozoan parasite in with the Tubifex. It is too late to reverse the belly-sliding but a treatment with flubendazole or metranozadole (Flagyl) would work.

I think the treatment is 5 mg per L of either drug... but remember that flubendazole comes as a 5% powder so if you want to add 5 mg you actually have to add 100 mg of the powder.

Metranozadole has no side effects (unless you are a pregnant women) while low quality flubendazole can cause belly-sliding (ask the Discus folks...). Try a treatment with Met. first. 5 mg per L for 3 days with 50% water changes per day.

I can't help you with bacteria as it is against my policies to suggest antibiotics for non-human diseases. You may want to try malachite green or acriflavine that will knock the socks off any bacteria... and quite possible the fish too so first go with the Met and stop feeding Tubifex*.

Regards

*I'm sure all your other fish are doing great on Tubifex but fry are generally raise in denser conditions where disease has a better time staging a party. Older fish are also more disease resistant.

[stormhawk]

Hi Tyrone, thanks for the suggestions. As of today the casualties are down to zero. I am moving the fry to larger quarters and hopefully things will perk up. I don't think I'll treat them with any medications for now. As things have stabilised with the notatus, their diet will rotate around a mix of daphnia and BBS with occasional feedings of tubifex.