Mystery deaths

[whuntley]

[Reposting from killietalk]

I had three pairs of young AUS Orange breeders that all simultaneously decided to swim upside down, last night. The same 5G tank had once housed a bunch of NIG babies that also vanished suddenly, a month or so ago. The AUS had been in the tank about a week or 10 days.

I had deliberately left the tank with no fish, so fish-borne pathogens could die off, if there were any. [Most don't survive with no host.]

The tank had a sponge filter running gently (or not at all?), and a big wad of Java Moss that was lush and healthy. The only other inhabitants were a lot of ramshorns, and some of those were up to about 1/4 to 3/8 inch in diameter. They are still apparently quite healthy.

Except for their inverted position (indicating possible abdominal bloat) the fish retained good color and showed no visible signs of Velvet, Glugea, etc.

I had pulled a couple dozen eggs from their mops just a few days ago. They ate bbs yesterday. Before that they had been getting the same blackworms my other fish get and some bbs every day. Once in a while I feed a bit of flake food to keep them used to it, so they may have had some a week or so ago.

Water parameters, after the fact, were:

pH 7.50

NH3/NH4 0

tds 275 ppm

GH 5 degrees

KH 4 degrees

Temp. 74.5 F

I'm bummed. Any suggestions for things I should look for gratefully accepted. My new baby death rate has been higher than I would normally expect, and losing the whole batch of NIG was a shock. Earlier I lost a hatch of magnificus to presumed velvet. They were too tiny to see it, so diagnosis was just a guess.

I had been attributing it to getting used to new water, etc., but now I begin to doubt that. Your suggestions appreciated.

Wright

[Shae]

I dont know if it makes any difference but i keep my australes (presuming that is what you mean by AUS) at 26c i think thats just over 80f (we run in celcius over here) Other than that i always use water and substrate (if i use any) from older more mature tanks. this obviously introduces the healthy bacteria into a new enviroment and helps the mini-ecosystem in which the fish live become healthy alot quicker ( something you could use to speed up the cycle process is Stress Zyme). Also any sponge, box, powerfilters or canister filters i always run in an older tank to collect the bacteria from there before moving into a new tank.

Othe than that i can be of no help, i have never expirenced anything like that before.

Shae

[whuntley]

"Only 40 Characters!"

Oh, no! There are a lot more than that many on this forum. Stick around and you'll find out.

Wright

[ruyle]

Wright, in the words of former President Bill Clinton: "I feel your pain."
Piscine SID is definitely a bummer. I do remember reading somewhere
that orange AUS will take a nosedive where there is no known etiology.
You mentioned new water, do you have the county water report? I remember when I lived in Fallon Nevada they have 10% above the "accepted" level of cyanide Sure sounds like there's something inimical in the water to have multi-specie fatalities. How much salt is in
the water? I would like to know if some salts are harmful to fish, such as
iodized or non-iodized salts or if some brands use additives that are harmful (excluding yellow Prussiate of Soda).

I have a friend who has surplus eggs of 2 Epi species, plus australe chocs,
if you are interested, pm me. Bill

[Shae]

What i meant was only 40 characters for the signature, too small.

You should be useing the standard non-iodized salt.

Currently i have alot of epiplatys degati Eggs, what type of epiplatys eggs does your friend have?

We only have the annulatus or clown killie and the degati in NZ.
And we have only just managed to get chocolate australes after breeding and breeding and breeding the golden australe we finaly got some of the brown colour morph and have slowly been strengthening it, and know we have chocs along with the gold. I must say i prefer the choclate australes

Shae

[ruyle]

Yes, 40 characters certainly cuts down the colorful verbiage some of us
like to use

My friend has Ep. infrafasciatus rathei and Ep. infrafasciatus baroi--there, I remembered to italicize, Zut Alors!

He is very proud of the chocs, which have very impressive finnage edged
in white. He also has Fp sjoestedti "dwarf red" available and Simpsonichthys rosaceous Thanks for the salt info! I've been using
Morton Kosher salt which is non-iodized. I would like to try Calcium chloride and/or Potassium chloride in stead of using sodium, have you done this?

Regards,

Bill

[whuntley]

Wright, in the words of former President Bill Clinton: "I feel your pain."
Piscine SID is definitely a bummer. I do remember reading somewhere
that orange AUS will take a nosedive where there is no known etiology.
You mentioned new water, do you have the county water report? I remember when I lived in Fallon Nevada they have 10% above the "accepted" level of cyanide Sure sounds like there's something inimical in the water to have multi-specie fatalities. How much salt is in
the water?

None that I didn't add. Look at my GH, and tds numbers. The GH accounts for about 90 ppm, so most of the rest was salt I added, probably. The australe come from estuaries and do like some added salt in their water. Locations like "Cape Lopez" are a dead giveaway. My normal GH would be down around 2 or 3, but I added a bit of "Equilibrium" to bring it to a level that was a better electrolyte balance with the salt I was adding.

I would like to know if some salts are harmful to fish, such as
iodized or non-iodized salts or if some brands use additives that are harmful (excluding yellow Prussiate of Soda).

The premium brands tend to use silicates in the form of silica gel. This is a form of broken glass that is harmless to you but too abrasive for gills and fish digestive systems. It is insoluble and clouds the water indefinitely, too. The iodides in "iodized" salt are as harmless as the chlorides in table salt.

I have a friend who has surplus eggs of 2 Epi species, plus australe chocs,
if you are interested, pm me. Bill

I still have a bunch of eggs I collected from these guys, so thanks but no. I need to decide what I must do to bring the eggs through without whatever killed the parents, tho.

I looked at my water analysis and see nothing unique enough to cause such problems. The fluorides are borderline high (barely enough to stain kid's teeth), and the iron is above EPA guidelines at 310 ppb (to their suggestion of 300 ppb). Makes for lush plants but not a problem for fish. Also makes chlorinated water taste like hell, but mine comes from a well across the street and it has no chlorine/chloramines. Best tasting water you ever drank. Even better than Crystal Geyser, who bottles almost the same stuff about 90 miles south by Hwy 395.

I raised these AUS from eggs, and they were raised in harder/saltier water until I recently diluted it from about 400 ppm to the current level with several additions over a couple of hours. [I was suspecting velvet and had kept it at levels Oodinium cannot tolerate. ]

The details can be endless, but keep asking pointed questions and we may find out what has me stumped, right now.

Wright

[shortman]

What i meant was only 40 characters for the signature, too small.

This is the default and we have lot of people abusing it locally and exploit on the forum.

I will remove your signature.

Admin

[Shae]

My friend has Ep. infrafasciatus rathei and Ep. infrafasciatus baroi--there, I remembered to italicize, Zut Alors!

He is very proud of the chocs, which have very impressive finnage edged
in white.

Bill

Gees i wish we had those species in NZ, The Chocs are a killie to be very proud of!! they are stunning gentle killies, and if you have a nice male and breed them, you can keep the strain running Good. Also a killie i have yet been able to get my hands on. We have the Blue Gularis, which is like a big blue version of the Dwarf Red.

Shae

[Shae]

My friend has Ep. infrafasciatus rathei and Ep. infrafasciatus baroi--there, I remembered to italicize, Zut Alors!

He is very proud of the chocs, which have very impressive finnage edged
in white.

Bill

Gees i wish we had those species in NZ, The Chocs are a killie to be very proud of!! they are stunning gentle killies, and if you have a nice male and breed them, you can keep the strain running Good. Also a killie i have yet been able to get my hands on. We have the Blue Gularis, which is like a big blue version of the Dwarf Red. And belive it or not but there is only 1 pair of blue gularis (sjoestedti) in NZ so if we lose it before it breeds and can be spread around other breeders were in a bit of a spot!

Shae

Shae

[whuntley]

Yes, 40 characters certainly cuts down the colorful verbiage some of us
like to use

I just counted and mine has 47. Spaces must be freebies.

My friend has Ep. infrafasciatus rathei and Ep. infrafasciatus baroi--there, I remembered to italicize, Zut Alors!

I really lust for the ANN Monrovia Reds. I got some from N&RSC but managed to lose them, right away. I blamed it on shipping shock. Hmmmm. Never thought about that.

He is very proud of the chocs, which have very impressive finnage edged
in white. He also has Fp sjoestedti "dwarf red" available and Simpsonichthys rosaceous Thanks for the salt info! I've been using
Morton Kosher salt which is non-iodized. I would like to try Calcium chloride and/or Potassium chloride in stead of using sodium, have you done this?

Why do you want to do that? You need a certain balance among all the critical electrolytes and too low sodium can be as bad as too low potassium. It's just harder to achieve so not seen as often as muscle cramps, etc. In air force boot camp, it was called heat prostration, and usually resulted in airmen fainting in the hot Texas sun.

In harder water you can add salt to whatever the fish tolerate. In soft water, it's a good idea to add some Seachem "Equilibrium" to provide the essential electrolytes that may be deficient in softer water, if you are going to add salt. Sorta like drinking Gator Ade instead of Cokes.

Wright

[hobbit6003]

Hi Wright,

With such an acute symptoms that had happened to your fishes, I'd point to the water as the main suspect.

Chemical toxicity can be a problem, and most of the time, that usually accounts for deaths of unknown eitiology to your fishes. Do you know the composition of your water? Have you changed water recently?

Fish swmming aimlessly, spiralling or even upside down, can be due to the neurotoxicity with a chemical origin, so to me, this looks like the problem presented here.

Let's see if others have their views on this.

Cheers,

Kenny

[Shae]

What i meant was only 40 characters for the signature, too small.

This is the default and we have lot of people abusing it locally and exploit on the forum.

I will remove your signature.

Admin

I dont understand?

Shae

[ruyle]

I just counted and mine has 47. Spaces must be freebies.

Well, you are the Chief Bloviator, after all

Why do you want to do that? You need a certain balance among all the critical electrolytes and too low sodium can be as bad as too low potassium. It's just harder to achieve so not seen as often as muscle cramps, etc. In air force boot camp, it was called heat prostration, and usually resulted in airmen fainting in the hot Texas sun.

Yes, dumkin me, my bad and my salt is pickling salt in the
red and white box and is iodized. The salt I bought before was
kosher--glad iodized salt is ok.

In harder water you can add salt to whatever the fish tolerate.

Yep, my water is medium hard so I just add salt to taste

Bill

[ruyle]

Gees i wish we had those species in NZ, The Chocs are a killie to be very proud of!! they are stunning gentle killies, and if you have a nice male and breed them, you can keep the strain running Good. Also a killie i have yet been able to get my hands on. We have the Blue Gularis, which is like a big blue version of the Dwarf Red.

Shae

Shae, PM me your address, I'll see what I can do. Awful long distance
from my friends house in Indiana, though.

Bill

[Shae]

might be easier to talk over msn.

Shae

[keehoe]

Shae, is New Zealand as strick as Australia when it comes to importing things that move?

[TyroneGenade]

the iron is above EPA guidelines at 310 ppb (to their suggestion of 300 ppb). Makes for lush plants but not a problem for fish.

Allow me to toss a mad hypothesis into this thinktank.

Iron is a fantastic oxidative catalyst. In physiology iron(II) can take O2 and a few spare electrons and create the nasty superoxide (O2^.-) that will react with anything and cause damage. This is called the Fenton reaction.

Your NH3 is 0. This is super but what if it wasn't 0 originally? A high Fe2+ concentration combined with good O2 in the water could catalyse the conversion of NH3 to NO2-. Your filter, not being primed, would not then be able to cope with the problem so your fish then suffer NO2- poisoning...

We can test this by simply taking some tap water with high iron, add an airstone and a fixed amount of ammonia. Then take a sample later on and see if if the ammonia has decreased and the level of NO2- has increased along with a delcine in pH.

What ever the actual cause I do strongly suspect a toxin and I would not rule out a bacterial toxin. Armed with the sage and useless opinion I leave you to speculate to your heart's content.

Shea, do you know Andrew Broome in NZ?

Regards

P.S. been following the news? See I was right, Arafat was poisoned... but the PLO is terming "he did not die by natural causes."

[Shae]

Shae, is New Zealand as strick as Australia when it comes to importing things that move?

New Zealand and Australia are on the same wave length, There are varietions mainly in marine though.

I dont know Andrew Broome very well, However he is no longer the driving force of killies in NZ the president of the NZKA is know Alan Wakelin, and the driving force is more about 6 serious breeders in NZ.

Why do you ask?

Cheers Shae

[TyroneGenade]

Why do you ask?

Because he used to be the driving force of killies in NZ. :-)