SJO breeding experiment

[TyroneGenade]

Hello all

From a previous thread I had said that from my Fp. sjoestedti (about 3 months old) I had got eggs of which about 2-4% were fertile.

Reasons for this were possibly:
1) the temperature is not right
2) the water is too hard
3) the fish are too young

I have over the course of the week been softening the water while doing 50% water changes each day. I have refilled the tank 6 times with water 1/5th as hard as the tap water. So we are now at about 20% Pisa tap (which is quite hard... don't know specifics). Today I pulled a mess of eggs that were largely discarded. I've replaced their spawning sand and will tomorrow collect fresh eggs that I will count and monitor for viability.

Now 2 possible outcomes can be observed:
1) there is no change in egg viability
2) the is an increase in egg viability
(I don't think I could see a decrease in egg viability!)

If there is an increase the reason can still be "well the fish are now a bit older" so to make sure it is water quality I will have to again harden the water. If I then see a decline in viability then I can conclude "softer water appears to improve egg viability." This is an example of scientific method. I will then have to repeat the experiment at least 3 times before I can actually arrive at a real conclusion with any statistical weight. I will still have nothing firmer than a well supported theory which isn't philosophically fact but now I digress.

If there is no increase in viability then I will raise the temp and see what that does. If that fails, then I guess I will just have to wait for the fish to age and see if fertility improves.

Those of you who have some sjoestedti now is a good time to do some experiments of your own. Maybe we can put an article together for one of the journals.

The more general our observation (that is to say, the more circumstances we find the same trends in) the stronger the evidence will be.

Regards

[TyroneGenade]

Collected 71 eggs this evening. My they are sticky! Let you know Monday what the results are.

tt4n

[whuntley]

Tyrone,

You left out an important 4th reason -- the sand apparently damages eggs of Fp. and other semi-annuals very badly. IME, sand *only* works with some Nothos, and then only if done with extreme care. [I never got it to work well with W. Africans or SAAs, in my few limited tries. It killed eggs fast. I have even had trouble with coir, with some species.]

Try doing it right, by spawning them over twig-free peat (e.g., as from pellets) and see how many survive. Leave the eggs on or in the damp peat or they will turn white and eventually fungus. Water incubation is not a good option with many Fp. and similar annual or semi-annual fishes. Their eggs are more susceptible to bacterial invasion and/or need more oxygen, I suspect, and keeping them in the low-pH peat gives them a better chance to avoid death (if not damaged by handling, as in mop-picking or sand abrasion).

Just my (rapidly depreciating) US$0.02. YMMV.

Wright

[TyroneGenade]

Just my (rapidly depreciating) US$0.02

It think it may be worth every cent.

Thanks for the input. Should temp and hardness fail to deliver a result I will try peat.

tt4n

[RonWill]

Tyrone,
During the time when I maintained the SJO, infertile eggs were plenty and even good eggs go bad for reasons unknown. Immaturity may be the main cause and the pair was then 4 months old, at about 6cm.

I lost the SJO but am game with the experiment if you think Gularopanchax kribianus "Fifinda" and Gularopanchax fallax CI-98 also fall into the same group.

My specimens are about 5cm now and just starting to mature, I think, and there're floating/sinking mops but they don't seem to be using it.

Will try peat, as per Wright's suggestion, and see I get anywhere with them. Still, if sjoestedti and fallax share similar fertility rate, I'm not going to be overly optismistic.

[TyroneGenade]

Hello Ron, I'm told peat is the way to go with the kribianus and most likely the gulare/deltaensis as well.

My SJO are about 7 to 8 cm...

Here are my results so far:
Of 71 eggs, there are 7 left that have not yet fungused. This is 10% survival which is quite a bit better than 4% earlier. I am willing to stick my neck out and say "I think softer water may work better."

I'm currently raising the temperature to 24°C and will pull more eggs later this week. If I get more viable eggs then I will increase the hardness and see if I get less viable eggs. Right now and increase from 4 to 10% isn't anything to write home about. This could simply be random variation. The sample size is too small to be able to say with any certainty. If I can get 50% survival then I will claim "I think this makes a difference."

Regards

[A.Rashid]

Here is my SJO in htheir new home (in my office) temperature is at 25°C. So far no action yet, maybe they are acclimatising themselves in their new environment...

[nonamethefish]

Very nice! I have only seen one male blue gularis in life(mine ) but it seems yours has a quite long(as in length it runs along the back) dorsal/anal fins. My pair is currently seperated due to the male insisting on spawning with the female every day and the female not looking so good. She is really happy, gobbles blackworms like no tomorrow, and I'd like to think she's developing eggs. Its interesting how these blue gularis and the nothos I had for a rather short time roll onto their sides before striking at a morsel laying on the substrate.

[RonWill]

Here is my SJO in their new home...

Rashid, is this the "Dwarf Blue" pair from David? When they get horny, let me know... I'll prepare another tank

[A.Rashid]

Rashid, is this the "Dwarf Blue" pair from David?

Yes Ronnie, that's the pair from David. I guess it's now up to them to give me eggs. Will be putting them in a slightly bigger tank for them to move around as I find them a little bit restricted in the current tank. And of course I will surely update thier progress.

[nonamethefish]

Sounds good.

Here's my male(wrong colors).

[RonWill]

Joseph, that's a nice male! Have you tried using a peat bowl instead of mops, like what Wright suggested?

My fallax don't seem to take the cue and have no idea what the bowl is doing there!

Give us a holler when you get something going.

[whuntley]

I would be inclined to do a peat substrate, rather than a bowl, for these guys. Not all species will enter a closed area to spawn, and my success with Fp. doing it is poor, at best. YMMV.

Wright

[RonWill]

Peat substrate? WOW! That's gonna take alot of peat.

Wright, for a pair or trio, and assuming that it's peat bottom, what size tank would be reasonable? For the peat, how thick would you have it? Instead of peat or Jiffy pellets, will cocopeat do?

Not all species will enter a closed area to spawn, and my success with Fp. doing it is poor, at best.

Does that apply to all Fp. you've attempted so far or just a specific few not liking the bowl?

D*mn, just when I thought I could reduce my tank count

[whuntley]

A shallow bunch of peat in one corner may be enough, but I'd be inclined to do SJO in at least a 5G tank, and 10G would be better. I didn't mean a planted substrate, but just a thin (1/4"?) layer on a bare tank bottom. Be sure to have the bottom painted black on the outside, or a dark shelf below, as most killies are nervous if there is clear glass or too much light-colored stuff visible below them.

One or two boiled, rinsed Jiffy pellets would be good. I have had poor results with the misnamed "Coir" we get here. It retains moisture well, but is actually ground coconut shell and not just the fibrous outer material. As a result it is, IMO, a bit harsh on eggs. YMMV. I had similar problems with sand spawning.

If you also throw in a couple of sinking mops, you can just shake or finger comb their eggs into the peat when you collect it. They give the females more hiding options.

I'm sure some Fp. will be found that will eagerly spawn in/on damned near anything. I gave up on closed bowls after not doing well with several common ones, like GAR, FIL, and I forget who else.

["Memory" is hanging in there as my second-shortest thing! ]

Wright

PS. My favorite spawning-fish containers are the vertical drum bowls. The peat sits in the small flat area at the bottom. It is easy to collect and replace, but the fish get adequate air-surface area. If you can get one big enough for SJO it could be great. We rarely see any larger than 2.5G and that's probably too small, IMHO.

[nonamethefish]

Thanks Ron: I don't deserve any of the credit though for raising em though. I'll keep you guys updated.

I've heard of some people using large flat bowls around 5-8 inches diameter.

I never tried mops, but the pair did decide to spawn in the sand. The few eggs I could recover turned white after a day or so. I've been thinking about using a critter keeper but have no way to heat it. I suppose a flourescent fixture over the top might do the trick. I'm kind of concerned about trying to acclimate the fish to water with lower TDS.

Comments?

[A.Rashid]

Ronnie and Joseph,

What Wright mentioned about peat substrate is true and I have tested it. the pair does lay their eggs in them, but unfortunately eggs fungused. I also have experimented in using the aquasoil (ADA) as substrates and it works too the pairs laid their eggs in them instead of the mop provided.. the only thing now is HOW to get GOOD FERTILISED EGGS....

Now I am just waiting for the pair in my office to give me GOOD EGGS.

[CM Media]

HOW to get GOOD FERTILISED EGGS....

Hi Rashid,

This is the problem I faced when I have the SJO. Eventually, I pass a trio to a friend and a pair to Ronnie to try them out.

The difficult part is to get fertile eggs form them. They will definately lay eggs but after a few days, almost all eggs will turn white. That's the challenge! I hope to here good news from you.

[erikthur]

I am also eager waiting for some advice.
I discovered that my relatively young SJO ate their eggs.
But when I found a way around that problem the eggs I collected caught mold within a few days time. My local water is rather soft BTW.
I bought my SJO in the local store which means someone is producing them in a large scale. Which makes me fret much more over the problem.

[RonWill]

But when I found a way around that problem the eggs I collected caught mold within a few days time

Erik, continue the breeding effort with your healthy pair of SJO and I'm sure you'll be rewarded.

If you recall my response regarding your problems with sjoestedti eggs, do experiment with the combination of methylene blue, some salt, water incubation and feedback to us. I would have continued with that method if I hadn't lost the breeding pair from Au.

If your SJOs are store-bought, there is hope.