I've just hatched out some 10 RAC (Beira 98 ) frys from a tray of 50+ eggs, which was incubated for 8 weeks.
I've just noticed that unlike my previous GUE frys, these were just darting on the floor of the tray. Initially I thought they were newly hatch, and I left them alone for another 8 hours.
However, after 8 hours, they were still seen darting alone the floor. I then proceeded to transfer them to the grow-out tray.
After a day, the frys are still just swimming near the floor. Some of them have attempted to swim upwards, but they never lasted for a few seconds before they returned to the floor.
I wonder if they will become belly sliders....but the thing is, their swimming posture looked alright and don't look awkward at all. They are eating well too, being fed with BBS.
As for the GUE frys I had, they were already swimming at all levels after hatching out for a couple of hours.
Sheesh...what am I going to do with them if they turn out to be belly sliders?
Kenny
They sound like belly-sliders to me.
Did you add an oxygen tablet when you wet the eggs? This will reduce the likelihood of getting belly-sliders next time.
As belly-sliders they will grow up and mature---being able to breed---but will never swim properly. You can try spawn them, but do not just get rid of them unless you have some good fry.
Regards
Hi Tyrone,
No, I didn't use oxygen tablets to hatch them, but I provided them with a tray that is probably 5 times bigger than the previous GUE hatch.
One thing though, is that given the same amount of peat (RAC vs GUE), this would mean a dilution as well. I wonder if this can be a problem, since I've got well over 50 eggs mostly eyed-up,but many refused to hatch.
Well, I'll wait to hatch out the rest in about a fortnight's time, using oxygen tablets and also a more concentrated peat substrate.
I can see that some of them are really trying hard at swimming away from the floor, but tire themselves quite easily. I hope that when they mature, they can hop into the spawning tray to do their business. Growth don't seem to be a problem, as they're eating well and after 4 days, there're no fry deaths.
Wish me luck the next time roun! :-)
Cheers,
Kenny
Sheesh.....this is just getting worse....
I re-wet my GUE eggs today using basically the same water source as the RAC eggs, and guess what, ALL of the 4 frys that hatched turned out to be belly sliders!!!
I didn't add oxygen tablets, as the water is from a standing tray which is under indirect sunlight and with java moss inside pearling. Water temperature was 26 deg celcius, after it was left to cool for a while.
What I did different is that I used back the small container, and covered it for a couple of hours.
As I recollect what could have gone wrong with the water chemistry, it struck upon me that :
1. I usually top up water every 2 days, and each time a generous overdosage of anti-chloramine is used.
2. It is left standing by the window sill, and on the morning I was supposed to hatch the eggs, fumigation against Aedes mosquitos were performed under my flat. The room was hit by the smoke too, as I'm staying in a low lying flat.
Damn, it is still inconclusive as to what could have gone wrong, and it is certainly frustrating trying to do some guesswork here.
Kenny
The java moss pearling is a sign that the water in the tray is getting somewhat oxygenated. However, the extra boost in oxygen levels especially during the crucial hatching stage by the use of the O2 tablets cannot be discounted. I believe it is by means of the extra boost that gives the fry an extra edge in hatching.
In some occasions the outer shell or chorion of the egg is rather hard and can be taxing on the fry break out. I don't know what causes this problem.
The fumigation you experienced could have been another factor that caused the current problem. The gas used in the fumigation is a general insecticide and could have settled into a film on the water surface. Had this occurred, probable poisoning of the fry during the hatching stage may have occurred.
I usually close my windows when the fumigation takes place. Only when the smoke and smell has dissipated will I open the windows again. Rather not take chances.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
If I may allow to digress a little, I will have to compare these Notho belly sliders to the low fertility and viability of the eggs from my Nanacara anomala pairs of South American dwarf cichlids.
The Nanacara pairs were acquired some 10 months back, and has since spawned at least once a month, each time about 50 eggs would be laid.
However, most of the time the eggs turned out to be bad and would turned white and then eaten back by the mom. Sometimes, about 20% of them would hatch and turned into wrigglers, which then subsequently died before they become free swimming.
So far after 10 months, I've only managed to collect 10 frys which then grew out to be adults. Survival after 2 weeks from the hatch is 100% in this case.
Then you compare this to my prolific Apsito borelli pair, the pair had gone on to give many successful spawn , and have subsequently spawn with their offsprings as well. So successful were they that I can just dip my net in blindfolded and fish out a handful of the frys at any one time.
The difference between the 2 setups (nanacara vs Ap. borelli)? Well, the Nanacara pair have their water changed almost every week and dosed generously with anti-chloramine (3-5 times recommended amount), while that of the borelli hardly has any water change, except for small top ups that was never treated with antichloramine.
The similarity between the Nanacara and the Nothos? Well, their water is always pre-treated with antichloramine!
If I may bring you back to the thread where I was perplexed with the sudden deaths of my borelli frys frightened by sudden knocks on their tanks, these frys were netted and raised in a grow out tank. This grow out tank, due to the sheer numbers of frys in there (100-150), I change the water on alternate days up to 50%, and again dosed heavily with antichlorine/antichloramine. Wright Huntley, I think, suggested some chemical toxicity then (see http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1738)
While I'm, not entirely sure or convinced that such dosing could have caused some problems with my fishes, I do see a certain pattern there.
What say you guys?
Cheers,
Kenny
Kenny, I'm not sure what's causing your Notho fry to become belly-sliders but I've hatched and raised many Nothos and the thing I can tell you is that I've never seen belly-sliders among them. Belly-sliding occurs quite frequently with Killies like the Austrolebias nigripinnis and Simp. magnificus but never with Nothos.Originally Posted by hobbit6003
As for a noticeable pattern in the way you're raising your fry, I would suggest you try a bit of neglect. Your fish seem to do better if you pay less attention to them, don't you notice?
Loh K L
Hi Kwek Leong,
Haha, I heard you loud and clear!
I guess i'm a control freak in real life, and that has also transpired to my fishkeeping hobby.
I've still gotten some eye-up RAC eggs, and will hatch them in cool tapwater tonight .
As for the belly sliding RAC frys, they're eating so well that they refuse to even budge a millimetre from the floor! Still, I cannot bear to throw them away. Now, you're talking to someone who previously have no qualms about flushing hundreds of betta frys down the toilet bowl.
Cheers,
Kenny
What brand of antichlorine/antichloramine are you using? Any idea what is in it?[/quote]
Just another update:
Yesterday, I re-wet my GUE and RAC eggs, but this time, I used water straight from the tap.
Until this morning, the result thus far is:
GUE- 2 free swimming frys out of 2 hatched
RAC - 4 free swimming frys out of close to 30 hatched, the rest still lying on the floor.
Still, it is far from ideal, and I'm still left scratching my head for an answer.
Another good new is, that I saw my femala nanacara leading a new brood of frys yesterday, close to 20 of them! Their water change was neglected for 3 weeks eversince I came back from Thailand and diverted my energy to raising the Pseudomugil gertrudae frys and subsequently, the GUE frys.
Cheers,
Kenny
Another Update:
GUE - the 2 free swimming frys mentioned did not grow and eventually died within 3 days, whilst their siblings hatched earlier are now spawning, at nearly a month old.
RAC - 2 out of the original 4 free swimmers eventually reverted back to belly sliders, detriorated and died. The remaining 2 are growing out nicely, albeit slightly slower than the GUE frys of the same age.
I've also gotten some mops of Pseudomugil gertrudae eggs from Ronnie, and collected some from my own group. Many of the eggs fungicised, while only 3 managed to hatch, 2 out of 3 are also belly sliders! The only one is growing out nicely.
At the same time, my pregnant wife also miscarried! This was also attributed to a an unknown etiology that caused the prematured death of the foetus, which is supposed to be 1 month of age.
Sheesh....should I again blame all these on bad water????
It has been a bad month.......
Kenny
No. Don't blame the water, if it is from the SG municipal system. We know you have an excellent water system.Sheesh....should I again blame all these on bad water????
It has been a bad month.......
Kenny
What is the exact brand of antichloramine you are using? [Is there an echo in here?
Some brands may be real junk, because the compounds that make for good antichloramine action are quite expensive and, in some cases, unfortunately, very unstable. In other cases the makers simply lie about their products.
Here, I have tested many and settled on Amquel, Prime and Ammo Lock 2 as the better ones available in the US. I'm sure there are others just as good. Prime is more concentrated, but I think it breaks down sooner because of that. [I don't like the smell I get from an older bottle.] All sequester both the chlorine and the ammonia so they cannot burn the fish.
Some that claim to treat chloramine are simply lying and selling you the old-fashioned sodium hypochlorite without telling you. Every water change thens burns the hell out of the fish's gills, and is particularly fatal to new babies. If your water is hard and a bit alkaline, it sounds like you may have been getting a super cheap product that is being sold at a huge premium. Photographer's hypo is a very very cheap chemical. It does release a burst of ammonium ions from chloramine, that quickly turn to toxic ammonia at any pH much above 7.
I bet I can walk into any fish shop in CA and find several products that claim to treat chloramine that are simply lying. Find out, from those not having problems with their's, what local brands are actually good and what are not, if the three I mentioned are not available.
Wright
PS. One clue to the liars is that hypo will also sequester heavy metals, and no effective antichloramine product I know of will do that.
01 760 872-3995
805 Valley West Circle
Bishop, CA 93514 USA
I only use aged water that were directly from tap. But my fish hatch out OK. Kenny, you should look at other factors. Could it be the stress or overly clean water?
KeeHoe.
Hi Wright,
I'm using Aquqrium Products' Genesis, which is supposed to be able to remove both chlorine and chloramine.
This is one of the products that were tested by a fish researcher friend here, and was one of the highly acclaimed ones.
Well, the pseudomugil gertrudae and the RAC were hatched with just tapwater and no other additives, and results are much the same.
And I forgot to add that my neighbour reported a 90% mortality in one of his tank, just a few hours after a water change!
By the way, our water is relatively soft with kH at about 1dH and a gH of about 3 dH. pH stands at 7.5 direct from the tap.
The trouble is, the authority here is sometimes using chloramine, and this have caused alot of problems to sensitive fishes like arowanas and the discus here, if the hobbyists are not careful. The tapwater has newly treated water called New-water being added to our reservoirs.
There has been rumours of having some biochemical additives into the New-water treatment, but as it is, it is unproven.
*Kee Hoe*
I don't consider water being left alone standing, without being treated, as being aged. Besides chlorine which can easily be removed by agitating the water, chloramine is pretty much stable in the water that cannot even be removed by boiling water, not to mention other chemicals and heavy metals that can be found in there.
Haha, I think a little bit more qualification is needed on stress induced by 'overly clean' water. Water with an unfavourable parameters perhaps, but CLEAN water???
The strange thing is, I could hatch almost anything just 1 month prior to this, from gertrudae to GUE, to my borellis.
Well, at least I found 1 developing gertrudae egg amongst a trio harvested yesterday, let me keep my fingers cross.....
Cheers,
Kenny
I'd quit trusting that source.
Genesis is simply cheap photographer's hypo at a high price with a lot of "snake-oil" advertising hype. In your poorly buffered, high pH water, it can easily kill babies with the released ammonia. It does not remove the ammonium, it breaks the bond and releases it right into the water. It is not one bit better than Novaqua!
That is basically unhealthy water as it has too little of the essential electrolytes to be safe. Purer water often is not better water for sustaining life. Even tiny bits of salt, in your water, can become poison, if potassium is overbalanced too far. I would add enough Seachem "Equilibrium" to bring the GH to about 4-6 and then enough sodium or potassium bicarbonate to get KH to about 2-3 dH,
ALL fish, particularly baby fish, are sensitive to chlorine and chloramine! Their gills are burned and they suffocate.
The New-water is probably just reclaimed gray water using RO filtration to remove any larger molecules. No additives are needed for that except the chloramine when bacteria counts exceed a safe level. The amount of chloramine can change a lot, depending on the microbe analysis. A cheap chlorine test kit will tell you how much chloramine is being added at each water change. It should vary from time to time. The chlorine test kit can give you a rough estimate of how much chloramine remover (not Genesis) you need each time.
Unless you were measuring the chlorine ppm every time, you have no way to know what excesses of chloramine you are getting now over what you got then.
If you know you might be getting chloramine, there is no substitute for testing for chlorine, every time. The test kits usually are cheap at swimming pool and spa suppliers, but fairly expensive at the LFS.
Knowing how much "chlorine" can tell you how much of the formaldehyde-like dechloraminator to add. [Add enough so it tests at zero chlorine.] Never try to use hypo on chloramine, unless you can age the water with vigorous aeration for several days to remove the ammonia. Ammonia tests are utterly worthless, for 5-10 ppb can cause gill damage and stunting. The lowest step on hobby kits is usally about 250 ppb (0.25 ppm). The amount in tap-water chloramine can be as much as 2-3 ppm!
Alternatively, slow filtration through a good activated-carbon block filter (also known as "taste and odor filter") can remove all chloramine. Be sure to do a chlorine test to assure your filter is running slow enough to get adequate contact time, and has not worn out.
I think your problems are over. Get a real chloramine remover.
Wright
01 760 872-3995
805 Valley West Circle
Bishop, CA 93514 USA
Hobbit,
The Beira98 I hatched one week after you have colored up now I have both male/female.
They don't quite like water change everytime I did that one or two will die on me.
Anyone know why? Others killies does not have this problem.
You can have it. hehehe
Cheer
Hobbit,
Sorry to tell you that we have are not very stable. Look like it is from both of our source. Did not wanna to pass to you and then die on you.
Au/Ronnie, if you reading this any ideal to improve their condition?
Regards
Kho,
What's wrong with the fish?
Kenny
Singapore water soft (from what I here) and probably turns acidic very fast. It will however come out of the tap with a neutral or alkaline pH to spare the pipes. This means with every water change you cash a pH spike that will turn harmless NH4+ into deadly NH3.
Solution: Do a bigger water change to reduce the level of NH4+, or let the water stand in a big drum or tank and lower the pH a bit with some Aquasafe or something (that way you also cover chlorine and chloramine). Aerate the water so that some CO2 will dissolve in and lower the pH.
Regards
Tyron, how about in situation that only hatch out male but no female Beira98?
I already gave away two male for my friend to put in his goldfish bowl and now i have 4 more started showing colour. Going to run out of Beira98 egg soon.
KeeHoe.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks