Welcome Lorraine!

[RonWill]

He only really has success in the spring and autumn with this species, he tells me

Tyrone, I believe that lower temp = prolific spawning. This is true of the SPL's I'm maintaining. In our heat wave, even AUS eggs go south.

Lorraine, what's the ambient temp in your fishroom? I recall you saying not getting anything for 6 months... summer time perhaps?

[TyroneGenade]

Are you adding Meth.Blue to the water? This is an oxygen carrier and may remedy the situation. Another idea is to put the eggs into an egg tumbler. Here is a post by Wright many moons ago on the importance of oxygen to egg development:

To: [email protected], AKA mail list <[email protected]>
Subject: Egg handling (was Re: keep gularis cold?)
From: Wright Huntley <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 09:26:31 -0700

Apologies for those who get it twice. I'm adding it to the killietalk list as they haven't had any good feuds there for days (since the last BNL thing!). :-)

[email protected] wrote:

Richard:

I am surprised by the lack of traffic on this thread. Would you care to elucidate a bit on this evidence? Are we talking about storing the eggs at a cooler temperature or keeping the adult breeding pairs at a cooler temperature.

My suspicion is that he meant the latter. It's also true of *A. jeorgenscheeli* and the diapterons, quite often. Many "equatorial" fish come from high enough altitude that they really do *like* cooler mountain water-- 65-72F.

I find that unless I let the eggs sit for a day or so in a weak anti-fungal solution before I place the eggs on peat I have a very low hatch rate.

I sometimes use antibacterials, like thiazine or analine dyes to inhibit egg damage, typically a very weak combination of methylene blue and acriflavin. I'm curious as to what anti-fungals don't damage the eggs, or why one would use them? My impression is that fungus is the more visible stuff, starting only after an egg has already died and is decaying. [Even products like Jungle's "Fungus Eliminator" contain *no* antifungals as such. Just a couple of antibacterials, salt and a mild tanning agent. Excellent stuff, BTW.]

I have noticed an anomaly that I would like to pass on to the rest of the net for comment. I recently returned from a business trip and so hadn't pulled any eggs from the mops in the gularis tanks. All the mops were full of eggs and of several hundred eggs only 10 or so had fungused over the 2 week time period. Being as the honey-do list was threatening to overwhelm me I placed the eggs directly on to damp peat ( no anti-fungal dip). This peat had been wet, microwaved and cooled only an hour or so earlier. By the following afternoon roughly 30% of the eggs were showing fungus. Any comments from the net gurus!!

IDK what any of the "gurus" will have to say, but I have been up, down, back and around on this subject for a long time. Chuck Olson and I have devised any number of bubblers and other devices to attempt to duplicate what trout farmers must do to eliminate egg loss. [Trout eggs are terribly sensitive to dissolved oxygen content, for one thing.] Any touching or just placing eggs into stagnant water seems to induce egg death, more in some species than others. The bacteria level in the water may directly harm eggs, or it may just rob them of oxygen. Dyes help here, but may over-harden the chorion and inhibit hatching if not diluted away quickly. Some obvious truths: Keeping egg water colder increases its ability to dissolve oxygen. Diluting dyes by water change also adds fresh oxygen and stirs the water. [The dye benefit could be *entirely* due to the early water changes!] Eggs left in mops in large containers get a lot of slow free-water circulation, by convection if not because of filtering currents. Some "maybe" truths: Handling causes enough damage to let bacteria get in. "Bubblers," like pilsner glasses with air line to the bottom, keep eggs in boiling suspension and may stop "fungus" cold. [Artemia-hatchery effect.] Sealing peat with eggs can cause enough oxygen deprivation to kill them. [Thinnest plastic bags are much safer. Taped Petrie dishes can be really deadly. BTDTBTTS.] The amount of rinsing, and the final dampening water in peat can be critical. Boiled, cooled and drained peat is usually way too acid for most eggs. Rinsing a lot with hard (i.e, well-buffered) water seems safest at preventing egg burn. [Add baking soda to final rinse, if all you *have* is soft water.] End of "maybe"s and into pure speculation: Eggs attached to plants *seem* to do better than eggs attached to mops. In mops or plants, the eggs usually hang by their sticky thread and don't make much physical contact with anything. That is, they are totally surrounded by the water with minimal flow blockage. Hmmm... Eggs do better in small containers if a sprig of Java moss is added -- I think. [The water certainly stays clearer as the rotifers, etc., eat all the free-swimming bacteria.] Hatch is increased by a few percent if you don't stare at them (but do look for and remove white eggs at frequent water changes). Crossing fingers may help. ;-) One family, in ultra-soft-water country, did very well by hatching Aphyo eggs in Petrie dishes where the water was changed a couple of times a day -- always at least daily. IDK if that's *all* they did, tho. Swapping out mops and *not* picking eggs seems to work better, as does using larger-surface-area hatching containers (sweater boxes rather than shoe boxes, for example). Airstones and plants in the hatching container seem to help, too. OK. That should be enough ammunition to bring the gurus out with flame-throwers lit. (^_^; {Japanese smiley. Same as (^_^), but sweating.] Wright

If you are not getting eggs, seperate the sexes and feed heavily. Reintroduce when the female is fat, and introduce only 1 female at a time. Spawn in a small tank for a short period of time. Wall to wall mops.

Just my 2c

tt4n[/quote]

[keehoe]

Hi all, looks like someone have been smuggling diaperon without telling coordinator! Oh well, whoever has it, please share with us you experience with the fish/ egg. Success or failure we all learn. So that we won't repeat the same mistake. Ok, joke aside.

Since O2 is so important. Would it be practical to do O2 injection much like what we did with CO2? Anyone try that? Does it really increase the O2 concentration effectively?

KH

[stormhawk]

Kee Hoe, I think it would be impractical to inject O2 into the tank. Give them the wrong levels and the fish will get pretty stressed.

It would be much more cost-effective and certainly more practical to just increase aeration and keeping the tank cool. Perhaps a mini-Henri filter might just work for these small critters.

[Lorraine]

My fishroom has an ambient temp of 72f.
The tank has a day/ night cycle, the tank is heated during the day cycle to 74 -76f during the night the heater is off and the temp goes down to 70 - 72f.

They are fed BBS daily as well as fruit flies, grindal worms at other times.

I am about to put a tank divider in the tank to separate the males and females.
I am slowly softening the water. My tap water has a pH of 8.2 and a TDS of 280, but the buffering is silica. There is no measurable Calcium or magnesium in the water. So theoretically the water should feel soft to the fish. Last year they were breeding in my tap water and the eggs were fertile, the few that they gave me anyway. It is the same 2 pairs and they are now quite mature at about 15 months old.
I do have them in a 10g tank which is full, and in order for the recirculating filter to work the tank will have to stay full.

So I will try separation and see if that works.

Oh, and I do use methylene blue stained water. I don't add acriflavine as I find the 2 mixed makes the chorion tough. Pretty colour though.

[whuntley]

Lorraine,

The single most important tool in your fishroom should be your bottle of Seachem's "Equilibrium." Adding just tiny amounts can have a dramatic effect on both fish and plants.

Your water (like mine in Modesto and Barry's in OR) lacks several essential electrolytes that are vital to healthy cell function. I never like to see GH get below about 1 degree and don't find 3 degrees inhibiting most soft-water fish from breeding.

I even killed most of my Java moss (an estuarine plant in many places) by adding salt to raise the tds of my Modesto water. Without any balancing potassium, it becomes quite lethal.

Wright

[Lorraine]

Lorraine,

The single most important tool in your fishroom should be your bottle of Seachem's "Equilibrium." Adding just tiny amounts can have a dramatic effect on both fish and plants.

Your water (like mine in Modesto and Barry's in OR) lacks several essential electrolytes that are vital to healthy cell function. I never like to see GH get below about 1 degree and don't find 3 degrees inhibiting most soft-water fish from breeding.

I even killed most of my Java moss (an estuarine plant in many places) by adding salt to raise the tds of my Modesto water. Without any balancing potassium, it becomes quite lethal.

Wright

How much would you add, and would you use it on all tanks. I am specifically thinking of my diapterons. I am making RO them adding back my tap water to a TDS of 100, would it be better to add equilibrium?

Does silica have any effect on the fish?

[whuntley]

Lorraine,

With your tap water, adding it back to raise tds does no good at all. The silica isn't an essential electrolyte and, as you have said, yours contains none. Silicates are a nasty buffer, holding pH well up in the region where ammonium turns to deadly ammonia.

I'd add "Equilibrium" until the GH reads about 2 degrees. Add enough baking soda for a KH of about 3-4. [The silicates may screw up the KH reading. IDK. Using RO is better, by far.]

Back off to 1 degree on the GH if eggs don't hatch readily. I don't think 2 should be a problem, tho. As I recall, my Diapterons usually hatched well at GH of 4 or 5. Just don't do 20!

Bottom line is that all cell processes require what the med types call "essential electrolytes" These are the metallic ions of Ca++, Mg++, K+ and Na+. Lots of other traces are needed, but most will come in with food. Your plants may want more iron and phosphates than they are getting now and food may not provide enough of those without a very heavy fish load.

BTW, "RO Right" and several other water-amendment products might work, but I will not put them in my tank if the maker will not give me a breakdown of exactly what is in them.

Wright

[Diapterondave]

How much would you add, and would you use it on all tanks. I am specifically thinking of my diapterons. I am making RO them adding back my tap water to a TDS of 100, would it be better to add equilibrium?

Hi lorraine,

I never add anything but peatmoss or oakleaves to my RO water. I have a conductivity of about 25-30 us/cm that comes out of my RO system. There is enough left over in RO water ( it does not remove 100% of impurities) that I have found it to be just fine for soft water loving fish. I have bred many soft water fish and this has always been successful for me. People tend to worry about pH crashes but you need to give these fish at least weekly water changes. So as long as you do that , which we should be doing anyway, this is completely safe. If we look at the native waters of most of the fish we are talking about ie: Diapterons, this makes perfect sense. This is what has worked for me. This is not the popular view in america but I have had allot of success with this method. Anyway that is what works for me but there are many roads to Rome. Good luck.

[Lorraine]

Can you believe we have no oak leaves here.
I live at 8600 feet and very few leafy trees grow up this high.

I don't like peat moss, I don't like my water being dirty.
I think I will continue with the diapterons as I have been but add a tiny bit of RO right or it's equivalent. They mature ones lay very well. My cyanostictum egg yield is 8 to 12 eggs per day from 1 pair. They are ytaking a little break right now but will pick up laying again in a few days.

The silica does wreak havoc on my KH, it reads 180ppm
GH reads 10ppm, but it reads 10ppm regardless of the volume of water used.

My RO unit takes my tap water from TDS 280 to TDS 7, so I think a little too pure to use straight.

[RonWill]

Can you believe we have no oak leaves here

Heh, I kinda find that hard to believe but let me know if you need some. The oak leaf will leave the water somewhat tannic-stained, nice color (not dirty) and great for those skittish buggers. Not so nice, if you prefer crystal-clear water.

Lorraine, it's good to hear that the cyanostictum are still productive. I blew my chance earlier but would like to try again... after I clear off all my SAAs and Nothos at the 2nd Gathering. Do drop me a note when that is possible.