Killies.com's 2nd Gathering

[timebomb]

These things seem to have a natural cycle. Clubs get active and grow, and then ennui sets in or something, and they semi-stagnate or coast for a bit.

You are most probably right, Wright but the Killifish scene here never took off. We get some newbies who come in periodically and they seem enthusiastic but they disappear after a while. We had 2 young men once who were so keen one wanted to open a fish shop specialising in Killies and the other wanted to go around promoting the hobby in schools. Both have disappeared and although they said they would, they didn't turn up at the gathering. Somehow or other, it's always the same old faces. The only person whom we managed to recruit from the previous gathering and who later turned out to be a real serious hobbyist is Jianyang. Other than him, I can't think of another.

I went to Aquarama and bumped into a young man who was once quite keen on killies. He's into Bettas now and he told me he won 5 prizes in the Betta competition organised by Aquarama. I didn't do a headcount but there must be at least a hundred entries for the Betta competition.

We don't have the critical mass. There are less than 10 hobbyists in Singapore who can be described as serious Killifish hobbyists. Compared to the large numbers of Betta, Guppy and Cichild hobbyists, our small core of serious breeders seems downright pathetic by comparison.

Where did we go wrong? I don't believe it is because we don't have a club. We don't need one. Other than hosting an international Killifish show, there's nothing a club can do that this forum cannot. Is it because our gatherings are always held at fish shops instead of convention halls? I don't believe that's the reason either. As far as gatherings are concerned, it's always better to hold it in a place where there are fish Admission would be free whereas one would have to pay if the gathering is held in a hotel's function room.

Is it because we never had fish auctions or sales? There were many species of Killies available for sale at the gathering but hardly any newbie turned up to buy. Maybe the prices were on the high side but then again, that couldn't be the reason because how could they possibly know the fish were expensive if they didn't turn up in the first place?

I'm beginning to suspect that it's got something to do with the fish. Perhaps it's harder with Killies, the fact that many of the eggs we get from breeders overseas don't hatch and also it takes time and effort to raise sufficient numbers to keep a species going. It could be the hobbyists here prefer easier fish. Killies are just too much work for many folks.

Loh K L

[whuntley]

These things seem to have a natural cycle. Clubs get active and grow, and then ennui sets in or something, and they semi-stagnate or coast for a bit.

We don't have the critical mass. ...

Where did we go wrong? I don't believe it is because we don't have a club. We don't need one. Other than hosting an international Killifish show, there's nothing a club can do that this forum cannot.
Loh K L

KL,

I think you and I have already agreed to not agree on this. Apologies for going over this ground, once again.

The forum only provides a small part of the essential communication function, but it doesn't get folks off their dead backsides to bag up fish and get together socially. It has limited ability to generate donations from manufacturers that can lead to exciting monthly raffles of goods and fish. It lacks the immediacy of a dynamic speaker, in love with his collection story, etc.

Only the most avid species seeker will approach a breeder about getting some of her/his fish, and the chance for an impulse bid getting a new breeder going is virtually absent.

Most newbies are very reluctant to pose an important question on a public forum, for fear of looking ignorant (even if 98% of the readers don't know the answer). At a relaxed social function, the same question can be informally slipped past a couple of serious breeders without the same stigma attached. Listening to the group's conversation, they develop a comfort level about what is common knowledge and what is a difficult topic. The forum will simply never even get close to that informal level of assurance.

I believe physically joining together has social benefits that no electronic forum can overcome. In addition, having a legally-sanctioned structure can protect members from some kinds of liability under most British-based legal systems. That, in turn can attract members who otherwise want no part of a too-informal group that doesn't obey any rules (I'm one of those, for sure!).

If you have a simple, plain-language charter that they can read, they can see what limits are placed on the officers and what their rights are as members. Without it, anything goes, and IME it usually eventually does. Your rules for the forum have done wonders to make it a pleasant place to visit. The same goes exactly for a decent club charter and by-laws.

For a sample to start with, look at the Charter I wrote for BAKA some years ago. <http://www.sfbaka.net/Articlefmt.htm> [Originally used by two earlier fish clubs, BTW.] It wouldn't work under SG laws, in this exact form, but I bet a good lawyer would have only a few suggestions to make it functional for you.

Basically, it assures members that they control the club, and not the volunteers who take the main jobs on. No one reads it or refers to it, most of the time, but it is there when needed, with explicit definitions of membership, officers' responsibility, etc. This legal step is really essential when you are handling other peoples' money and fish. It protects all concerned with a legally enforceable structure.

Many BAKA Charter provisions are routinely ignored, but as long as no one cares, so what? It is mostly there to help bring things back on track if a despot takes over or the group ends up in serious policy disagreement.

Most of our AKA Affiliates start by meeting at member's homes. That gives each meeting a fishroom tour! As attendance expands, most have found the public meeting rooms at most of our Pizza Parlors are a good place to host a larger group. If you don't have those, check out where the local chapter of Rotary International meets, or other such service clubs.

I have belonged to several small associations that just made the regular meeting a chance for dinner out, and many food establishments here are set up with meeting rooms for such dinners. [Impoverished students just show up too late for the meal, but still get the companionship and chance to buy/win stuff.] There is no charge for the room as long as most buy dinner. Some require a special, fixed item menu. Pizza parlors often actually offer the most variety and informality.

You need that critical mass, and I feel strongly that regular meetings (NOT in a fish shop) with a program; raffle; sales table for live-food starters, fish bags, etc, not normally available in shops; and an auction of plants and pairs of fish or eggs; will get them streaming in.

Programs can be your local experts, like Prof. Tan, or videos rented from the AKA collection (which is huge!). Mini-presentations by local experts who can report ways to breed tougher fish are always welcomed.

It has to be regular, well publicized, and continued for many months, but you will eventually start to see the effects, if you will do it.

An early meeting should feature an all-donation auction to get a minimal treasury for the club. A bank account is vital, so the charter and local legal status are needed. After that a 50:50 or 75:25 seller:club split will work. A letter, early In Jan. to the major aquatic manufacturers, with ample proof you are a real club (Charter copy, web site URL, Newsletter, etc.) will get you a bonanza of free stuff. Local fish shops are often also willing to contribute, for the publicity they get from it.

Our local Blackworm farm in Fresno even gave out worm gift certificates to our last big WCW show in the Bay Area. Shops should do the same so the win gets someone into their store.

Sorry if I sound like a cracked record on this subject, but I do not see how you will grow by pursuing your present course. You need to get the added-value of face-to-face meetings and freedom from fish-shop interference into the process. The fish shops are great, but what you need and what they need have subtle differences that will eventually cause problems.

Wright

[RonWill]

Sorry if I sound like a cracked record on this subject, but I do not see how you will grow by pursuing your present course

Wright, your repeating tracks plays just fine to my ears and I do have a big piece of my mind to share but let me get over the swell of peridontal inflammation* (and when I can start thinking straight)

*... and yes, I'll kick the living daylights out of the next chap who come up and ask if I'm "mouth-brooding"

[whuntley]

Sympathy, in a big way, Ron.

Sounds painful as all get out.

Wright

[RonWill]

Wright, the extraction of 2 multiple root molars was a trip to hell and I get to yelp like a b*tch when I'm on painkillers and antibiotics.

The pain, however, pales in comparison with how I felt about the gathering [more on that later while I down my next dose of meds].

[stormhawk]

Ron, no wonder you had that "pained" expression during the gathering. Must have been those molars.

[RonWill]

...in my hurry to head back home I forgot all about the adornatus female that was packed in another bag

Jian Yang, forget about the adornatus... my male Blue Dempsey reminded me to thank you for the roe-filled snack

Just one question, who was taking photographs of the whole thing? I hope these people can forward me the pictures to my email account here

Folks, there were 2 person that had tentatively agreed to take pictures of the event. One had recently acquired an AC adaptor for the digital camera so "he could shoot all day" whilst the other volunteer... well... she forgot to bring the camera. We'll know how it went when the images are uploaded.

I'm planning to create a newsletter of sorts with those images since some of my overseas friends are pretty interested in what went on in Singapore earlier today.

Had that been the intention, what good would that do if one was 2 hours late?

[stormhawk]

Ron,

Err.. the female's gone? Then I've got one lonely male here. His partner decide to float up a day before the gathering.

I did bring my cam and the adaptor but was caught up with looking at the fishes and stuff. Again my apologies there. I hope Nonn can post up the images he took. It would be great should he decide to do so.

I did recall at least two ladies who did take pictures. Perhaps they would be kind enough to post.

About the late-coming bit, thank you for the reminder and yes, sorry again. I'll shelve the plans for the newsletter thing for now until images appear, hopefully sometime soon.

[stormhawk]

Jian Yang, forget about the adornatus... my male Blue Dempsey reminded me to thank you for the roe-filled snack

If that's not a joke then I am sad to say this species is going the way of the dodo in Singapore. Another one on the EX list.

Looks like I have to go find eggs for sale again..

[RonWill]

If that's not a joke...

Your cut-off time for collection is 6pm today. Afterwhich, just watch how the dempseys lick their lips as I dangle the adornatus in front of them

[RonWill]

All,
When I left Eco Culture last night, there were no less than 12 annual and 5 non-annual species, waiting for new homes;
Aphyosemion australe Orange
Aphyosemion australe Cape Esterias EBT 96-27
Chromaphyosemion bitaeniatum Ekondo Titi
Chrom. splendopleure Moliwe
Paraphyosemion nigerianus Lokoja

Fundulosoma thierryi
Simpsonichthys costai Formoso do Araguaia B2003
Simpsonichthys fulminantis Guanambi BHS 95-12
Simpsonichthys magnificus Itacarambi B7
Simpsonichthys suzarti South Bahia CI 99
Simpsonichthys trilineatus
Simpsonichthys sp. aff. delucai
Simpsonichthys sp. aff. stellatus Urucuia
Austrolebias nigripinnis Villa Soriano
Rivulus cylindraceus 'Al Castro strain'
... plus Nothobranchius guentheri Zanzibar, N. foerschi and N. palmqvisti.

Is the selection not good enough? Is there nothing worthy of the hobbyists' tanks? I have one question... where are all those people who've been asking, "Where can I buy killifishes?"*

Newbies are all too wary of eggs not hatching, buying live-fishes online, species mis-matching (by less-than-ethical suppliers) and then going on a wild goose chase for female killies.

Being able to breed some species and giving others the opportunity to acquire and maintain a good line of killie, makes time spent worthwhile... especially when my time have taken on an intrinsic value [which unfortunately is worth almost next to nothing by those who think that killies grow on trees]

My other question would be whether we made a mistake in coinciding the gathering with a major crowd-puller (Aquarama 2005). We had good intentions but was our timing terribly off? What do you think?

*BTW, I'm not dying for a sale nor will I get rich if all my killifishes are sold and am perfectly happy to have them back in my tanks.

[hwchoy]

mmm… I might pop down to Eco and pick out a nice pair of simps. I am curious about that S. aff. delucai and S. aff. stellata. they are undescribed species or merely looking a bit different from "normal" delucai and stellata?

[RonWill]

Choy, the names are referenced from our killie census and it's the same stellatus I raised from eggs and maintained till now. Not sure what a 'normal' stellatus would be like.

[hwchoy]

Choy, the names are referenced from our killie census and it's the same stellatus I raised from eggs and maintained till now. Not sure what a 'normal' stellatus would be like.

mmm… I checked the census so probably the best bet is to ask stormhawki where all these "aff." came from. I have pix of S. delucai, and the fish came from Au. There is no S. delucai in the census, so either it is missing from the census or the fish I have is not a S. delucai but a S. aff. delucai!!

BTW to be sure I didn't lose any one, aff. delucai means "a fish that is definitely NOT a delucai but most closely resembles it."


yooooo, stormhawki, where are you

[CM Media]

Hi Choy,

When I got the fish from the breeder, everything was still on the pending list. But I got the fish verified and that's why I took out the sp. aff. Hope that this clear your doubt. There is no other people here who has the Simp. delucai beside me. (Jianyang had took a pair during the recent gathering).

[hwchoy]

Hi Choy,

When I got the fish from the breeder, everything was still on the pending list. But I got the fish verified and that's why I took out the sp. aff. Hope that this clear your doubt. There is no other people here who has the Simp. delucai beside me. (Jianyang had took a pair during the recent gathering).

so the census needs updating

[RonWill]

Where did we go wrong? I don't believe it is because we don't have a club. We don't need one. Other than hosting an international Killifish show, there's nothing a club can do that this forum cannot

While attending Aquarama 2005 under Press Pass, I felt the obvious lack of killifish representation. There were none exhibited (except in one or two display tanks) but plenty of staples.

Unless we make ourselves more 'real' than virtual, there can never be a 'killie scene'.

One can lament over the huge entries for bettas, guppies, discus and arowanas but what drives these facet of the hobby? $$$ and the fact that the clubs were physically there, benching-in their entries, judging, on-site sales and recruiting newbies*.

Kwek Leong, I had harbored hope to have at least 20 killie species represented by 2007 and unless the entries are benched in by our club, none will make it. It's a big committment and helluva lot of work but isn't it something we can work towards to?

* I wonder if we can reach a larger target audience by introducing and selling killifishes from the club's booth at such aquatic shows. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[whuntley]

Ronnie,

I have supported and participated in many such general aquatic shows, where other species are present. For the most part, those efforts were an utter waste of time. They generated no (and I mean zero) new killifans, and were an enormous waste of volunteer time and effort. We did a little better at regular aquarium society meetings (where we give an annual program on killies) and auctions, but not a whole lot.

The activities that actually work are regular monthly killifish club meetings run in a fun way, and specialized regional or national killifish shows, run well separate from Bettas, Chicklets, etc. [We variously shared the BAKA WCW with poison dart frogs, livebearers, and Rainbows, but, every time, each of those efforts detracted from the main point and diluted volunteer effort excessively. Bad cost/benefit ratio.]

The attraction at the monthly meetings is the chance to buy some live food starters, plants, fish bags, etc., and the fun of raffles of nice fishy products. A chance to listen to some killinut being enthusiastic over his latest collection excursion (with slides of biotopes), or watching a well-made video about some aspect of killy keeping is a help in getting folks to go out in the rain. The ultimate attraction, finally, is the auction, which can be really fun with an entertaining, lively auctioneer. [It also establishes the local value of our fish in a way not otherwise possible.]

Last, but not least, is that the chance to schmooze with killifolk of all experience levels, in a relaxed environment, is not to be missed.

Killies get lost in the shuffle when asked to compete for attention with dinner-plate fish and gaudy Koi. In my opinion, you are asking to be ignored when you try to do it that way. Killifish are a special niche in the hobby that has survived despite long-established commercial failure and we must be realistic about it. Most folks don't even like natural, wild-type fish. They do not sell well in the shops until someone produces a pink cultivar with long fins! That isn't generally what we are about, so don't try to join that crowd if you want a really successful killifish hobby to develop in SE Asia. Look to AKA, DKG, BKA, etc. to see what actually has worked for our hobby.

That's my US$0.02. [Actually, it is free advice, again worth every penny.]

Wright

[stormhawk]

Choy,

With regard to the status of the two Simps, they are now confirmed to be of both species so therefore should be called as follows:

Simp. delucai
Simp. stellatus "Urucuia"

The Urucuia population is generally believed to be belonging to Simp. stellatus although that might change in the near future. There is one similar looking species called rufus and this population might be assigned to it in the near future. This population was collected near the rio Urucuia close to the town of São Romao, the type locality for Simp. similis.

As for the delucai, this species was caught close to the rio Urucuia near to the town/city of Urucuia, Minas Gerais state. It is generally believed that the population in the hobby is from this locality, however I will require further confirmation with my contacts in Brazil. I'll update as and when necessary.

I hope this has cleared some doubts.

[timebomb]

* I wonder if we can reach a larger target audience by introducing and selling killifishes from the club's booth at such aquatic shows. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Don't even think about it, Ronnie. As far as I know, the rent for a booth in Aquarama is in the region of thousands of dollars. How are we going to make a profit? Even if we're not looking for profits, there's no way we can sell enough Killies to cover the rent.

Wright thinks by forming a club we can get more folks into Killifish. I disagree. The culture here is different from countries in the West. In Singapore, clubs offer little benefits as fish shops are abundant. In countries like the USA, a club is very useful because it can help a hobbyist get what he can't find in the fish shops. That is, if he's even near a fish shop in the first place.

The fact that clubs have little to offer leads to the problem of membership fees. The AKA charges almost Sing $100 for one year's subscription for foreign members. I don't know how much local members pay but it can't be much lower. Over here, you will have problems recruiting members if your fees are higher than Sing $50 a year.

We couldn't get folks like Darren Lum and Sia Meng to turn up for the gathering although both promised me they would. These 2 were once real serious hobbyists, mind you. I have never met anyone with their kind of passion. The moderators here in the "Planted Tank" subforum didn't think it was necessary to attend too although they are part of our adminstrative team in Killies.com. So how are we going to persuade members to attend our meetings? What can we use as attractions that we aren't already using? Fish? There were many species for sale at the gathering but so few turned up to buy. Plants? What do we have that isn't already easily available? Many who turned up for the previous gathering did so because they wanted to buy my Downoi's and Erect Mosses. An expert to give a talk? Where do we find such a person? Who else is there besides us? Maybe we can get Wright down to give a talk but who's going to pay his airfare and hotel stay? To fly Wright from the USA to Singapore would cost a bomb and it would be hard to recoup the costs from entrance fees. With due respect to Wright, the folks here won't attend his talk if we charge anything more than $10 for entrance fees.

I've always been against the idea of forming a club. I still am. But I would give my full support to anyone who's gungho enough to do it. Just don't ask me to be President or anything like that. My wife will kill me if she finds out I'm going to be a committee member of any fish club.

The fact of the matter is - There are many causes worth fighting for and many ideals are worth the sacrifice in time and effort but forming a fish club isn't one of them. Not in my book, anyway. If I'm going to be President, I would rather be President of Singapore. If only those damn buggers allow me to contest

Loh K L