Killies.com's 2nd Gathering

[hwchoy]

Choy,

With regard to the status of the two Simps, they are now confirmed to be of both species so therefore should be called as follows:

Simp. delucai
Simp. stellatus "Urucuia"

The Urucuia population is generally believed to be belonging to Simp. stellatus although that might change in the near future. There is one similar looking species called rufus and this population might be assigned to it in the near future. This population was collected near the rio Urucuia close to the town of São Romao, the type locality for Simp. similis.

As for the delucai, this species was caught close to the rio Urucuia near to the town/city of Urucuia, Minas Gerais state. It is generally believed that the population in the hobby is from this locality, however I will require further confirmation with my contacts in Brazil. I'll update as and when necessary.

I hope this has cleared some doubts.

no problem, just update the census

[whuntley]

* I wonder if we can reach a larger target audience by introducing and selling killifishes from the club's booth at such aquatic shows. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Don't even think about it, Ronnie. As far as I know, the rent for a booth in Aquarama is in the region of thousands of dollars. How are we going to make a profit? Even if we're not looking for profits, there's no way we can sell enough Killies to cover the rent.

Wright thinks by forming a club we can get more folks into Killifish. I disagree. The culture here is different from countries in the West. In Singapore, clubs offer little benefits as fish shops are abundant. In countries like the USA, a club is very useful because it can help a hobbyist get what he can't find in the fish shops. That is, if he's even near a fish shop in the first place.

The fact that clubs have little to offer...

I cannot argue the cultural differences, but right here is where we come apart on perceptions.

Raising killifish, like aquatic gardening, is a complex and highly technical hobby, when compared to the goldfish or guppy in a bowl that most folks consider to be serious aquatic involvement. Stores are utterly incapable of supporting either the planted aquarium or serious killifish involvement, in SG or here. [BTW, we have two fish shops in our tiny town, but neither are worth a visit. Who said they aren't abundant, here?]

Historically, the "kitchen breeders" of Europe pulled the hobby through the destruction of WW II by forming clannish local groups to share knowledge and fish. They were very generous with that knowledge, after the war, and serious correspondence got that technology transferred to hobbyists in the new world.

When I first tried to breed N. guentheri, in about 1958, we had no local or national clubs (AKA was formed at least 4 years later) and the San Francisco Aquarium Society plus academics at Stanford and Berserkely were our only sources of information. Needless to say, that information was mostly wrong and success wasn't high.

The internet and this forum have given you a kick start that I would have loved to have in 1958, but you still don't provide the infrastructure that I found in BAKA when I returned to killies after starting a family and company in the early '60s. In 1990 or thereabouts, the BAKA attendance was running about 40 per meeting, in the smelly old basement of the Hayward Round-Table Pizza parlor.

A club can provide a newsletter (dead-tree or on-line is little difference any more) that includes a good writeup on upcoming meetings, and minutes of past meetings. Much of the technical content of the hobby is passed around as personal observations and fishroom physical visits, and a core of succeeding breeders is essential to getting big enough to need a meeting room to handle the crowd. My guess is that critical mass is about 10-12 very active breeders, of which at least 6-8 bring fish to every auction.

BAKA recently fell way below that threshold, and had to back off to meeting every three months. Recent regrowth has now forced the meetings to every other month, and it will be monthly again as soon as enough fish and volunteers show up to allow it.

The club could easily have died if a few staunch volunteers had not hung in there and dragged it through the toughest times. [All the best breeders got cancer or moved away at the same time -- just bad luck.]

snip...I've always been against the idea of forming a club. I still am. But I would give my full support to anyone who's gungho enough to do it. Just don't ask me to be President or anything like that. My wife will kill me if she finds out I'm going to be a committee member of any fish club.

The fact of the matter is - There are many causes worth fighting for and many ideals are worth the sacrifice in time and effort but forming a fish club isn't one of them. Not in my book, anyway. If I'm going to be President, I would rather be President of Singapore. If only those damn buggers allow me to contest

Loh K L

You would have my vote, KL, if those same buggers would let me vote, there. Unfortunately, I don't think you would like the job that much.

Starting a club is easier than you think. Keeping it going (as recently happened with BAKA) is another matter. It is a matter of getting an organization that works and then keeping it on track -- all that is really very little work.

We had the new officer each year be the treasurer. That way, even a newby was forced to get to know all the members as dues, auction results, etc. were tabulated.

Each officer (except a permanent recording sec.) was then promoted annually. Treas. went to VP (who organized meetings and auctions), and VP became Pres. (who's only real function was to preside at meetings and appoint committees). The Pres. became Chairperson (past-president, who advised the pres and presided over board meetings when he chose to call them).

The gradual accumulation of experience meant the functions were well served. The permanent (more-or-less) Secretary provided glue to keep knowledge of past actions before the board and guidance to the current pres. as to what works and what doesn't. [KL would be great at this job!]

Only one new officer needed to be found each year by the nominating committee (unless others were required to withdraw).

It really is that simple, and has been proven to work. I don't see any reason cultural differences cannot be accomodated. Certainly the hobbyists of basically Sociocratic Europe and almost-Libertarian US have no trouble overcoming their deep sociological differences.

I think we have to recognize that the very reasons that killies aren't a big commercial success is why we need to provide some underpinnings that the commercial world easily provides to commodity fish, like chicklets tetras and livebearers. Local and national clubs have been the solution in Europe and in N. America. There are just too many fun species, and too many diverse motivations (specializations) for the commercial shops to provide the kind of support that a succesful hobby needs to flourish.

I love to argue, and KL makes it soooo easy!

Wright[/i]

[imported_lily]

Folks, there were 2 person that had tentatively agreed to take pictures of the event. One had recently acquired an AC adaptor for the digital camera so "he could shoot all day" whilst the other volunteer... well... she forgot to bring the camera.

Hi all,

Before the gathering, I promised to shoot pictures but somehow, after charging all batteries, I forgot to place them in my bag. Well, my only explanation is.. Age is catching up real fast for me now, I am old. By the time I returned with the camera, there were not many people left so I did not capture anything, sorry about that.

I think the reason why not many people turned up during this gathering is because there was nothing unusual to offer, unlike the first time where many turned up hoping to buy some special aquatic plants, or perhaps I may be wrong.

[RonWill]

Kwek Leong and Wright,
Time and again, the both of you make me feel like I'm torn between two lovers. Both are equally sound in mindset and I cannot argue with logic.

I was chatting with a committee member from the Betta Club and apparently, with about 5 shows yearly, including one IBC sanctioned show and National show, it's a real drainer. We need those few good men (and women), people who are do-ers and not talkers. These are far and few in between.

It is also undeniable that regardless whether one is a kitchen or corridor breeder, the resources and time needed to cater beyond oneself cannot be measured by the dollar. The heart hears a calling but the wallet feels another.

The setting up of a Killie Club isn't too complicated (on the surface) and revolves around a few individuals but to have it sustained, in accordance to local Society Laws, with the necessary administrative and financial accountability, even I too might be 'burnt out' by then.

Some of the folks here are present and former Betta/Guppy Club members and even though killies might not have reached their level of popularity, I would still like to hear their thoughts.

[timebomb]

I love to argue, and KL makes it soooo easy!

And I should know better than to argue with you

Let's lay off the topic for a while, Wright. We'll be flogging a dead horse if we keep on arguing over this. Jianyang and Ronnie are in the process of forming a group. Jianyang already has the logo created. A group will probably be the first step in the direction of forming a club. Who knows? Maybe we'll really form an official Killifish club one day but I'm not optimistic.

Loh K L

[Piscesgirl]

Not sure if this is relevant in any way, I had been intrigued by killifish but was put off by the impression that they were hard to keep in that only live foods could be given. Even when I finally bought mine, I was worried that they would die because live foods are something I will never feed (just not something I can do). My killies do fine on flake and frozen food. I think that killies would be more popular if it was emphasized that they are good fish for hobbyists that aren't specifically interested in breeding, good for not simply species tanks, and not that difficult to keep....I guess in a nutshell, I'm trying to say that it is possible that a good many hobbyists may be intimidated by killies.

[timebomb]

Deborah,

Your experience with Killifish is perfectly relevant to this thread. When I spoke of cultural differences, I also meant the differences in how Killifish are perceived locally as opposed to how hobbyists in the West see them.

Over here, Killies will never attain the same kind of value like other fish, the Luohans for instance. Luohans exchange hands for thousands of dollars. The main reason for such high prices is because certain commercial entities were driving up the prices. But they will never have that kind of success if the Luohans were as small as our Killies. Yes, size does matter. No one would pay high prices for a fish that is so small, no matter how beautiful and rare it is.

Many hobbyists here share your dislike of feeding live foods to the fish too. A guy wanted to buy my trio of Austrolebias nigripinnis at the gathering. He was very keen and asked me many questions on how to keep the fish and breed them. But when I got to the part about live food, his eyes sort of glazed over and in the end, he didn't buy the fish. And I didn't even mention microworms or anything of that sort. I only said "feed the fish with Tubifex". Tubifex worms are so easily available here but yet so many hobbyists refuse to have anything to do with them. We're a squeamish bunch, I guess. Ronnie should know. He has a hard time getting people to take his microworm cultures even when he gives them away for free.

There's also this thing about collecting eggs and incubating them. Many hobbyists think this is too much work and they find the incubation period a big bother. I have friends who are into breeding fancy Guppies and I know a few folks who breed Bettas. The former goes through a lot of trouble making their own fish food for their beloved Guppies. The latter keeps so many jars at home I don't know how they find the time to change water. Yet these 2 group of hobbyists find Killies troublesome. It could be the main difference between them and us is that they are constantly trying to come up with a new strain or a hybrid. Although I'm against the idea of creating hybrids, the thought of creating one is exciting nonetheless. There's a Frankenstein lurking in all of us, I believe.

Having said all that, I wonder what draws us to Killies in the first place. Is it because they are so beautiful? Or is it because they are rare?

I don't know about you all but it's their amazing life cycles that fascinate me. I must have done it at least a hundred times but everytime I wet peat and see fry, I still get very excited. A couple of years ago, I gave a few bags of peat to my maid who went back to the Phillipines for a vacation. When she returned, she told me how excited her relatives were when they saw fry appearing from a bag of peat soaked in water. "How come got fish?", they asked repeatedly. They just couldn't understand how fish can appear from a bag of stuff that look like mud

Loh K L

[Piscesgirl]

There's also this thing about collecting eggs and incubating them. Many hobbyists think this is too much work and they find the incubation period a big bother.

I agree that is intimidating too! I think of trying to collect some eggs from my F. Walkeri to send to you guys in Singapore (if you want them), but the whole process seems alien to me

I don't know about you all but it's their amazing life cycles that fascinate me. I must have done it at least a hundred times but everytime I wet peat and see fry, I still get very excited. A couple of years ago, I gave a few bags of peat to my maid who went back to the Phillipines for a vacation. When she returned, she told me how excited her relatives were when they saw fry appearing from a bag of peat soaked in water. "How come got fish?", they asked repeatedly. They just couldn't understand how fish can appear from a bag of stuff that look like mud

I admit, that concept is fascinating to me too. Isn't mother nature grand?


Bigger is better tends to be the think in the U.S. too -- especially when it comes to big trucks and SUVs. In my area they are useful, but I don't think everyone that is driving them truly 'needs' them. Haven't they heard the phrase "good things come in small packages"?

[joteo]

Thought I'd emerge from my lurker mode and offer my two cents worth.

I chanced upon this forum because I was searching for information about planted tanks.

I was surprised to find a forum full of Singaporeans with one interest - killie fish - a fish that, I, a fish newbie, had never ever heard of.

Little did I know that I'd find so many friendly people who offered me so many things (fish, plants, sand, hints, help) for absolutely nothing, except profuse thanks.

I know that Kwek Leong has tried to get me interested in Killies.

Kwek Leong gave me killie eggs and I got them hatched. And I was most fascinated by these eggs that could go through dry incubation and hatch later upon wetting.

I have enjoyed every hatching that has occured since. And since my father had bettas, feeding them wasn't too difficult - brine shrimp and tubifex were readily available.

But I'm primarily a guppy person and fish flakes and powder are their diet.

Killies sniff at such food.

(For a person who is very busy, live food can be hard to handle.)

Guppies swim to me when I go toward them.

Killie fish hide away or jump around in fright. They remind me of the discus my father used to breed - you could give them a heart attack just by looking at them.

Even today, I have to creep up toward the killies. I put a betta tank in front of their tank, and look at them through the betta tank.

My guppies, even for albinos, seem hardy.

I've killed so many killlies I've lost count.

The guppies just drop their babies and they live with their parents if I forget to separate them.

The killie egg pickings have been slim and most have fungused up. (but now, I'm going to try and just leave the eggs in the mop.)

For me, the killie fish is hard to keep. They are pretty, but they don't like to come out and show how pretty they are.

Then there are these names. Maybe, I'll step on some toes here, but sometimes I just want a fish to be just called Killifish and just enjoy them.

Now, there's this issue with the photos. And I guess I'm one of the people that Jianyang saw taking photos. But I am truly the dope behind the camera and I don't have a proper macro lens, so I can't capture the whole body of the fish.

If you like out of focus pictures (only five or six), you can look here:

http://photobucket.com/albums/y107/j...e%20Gathering/

Sorry, I forgot to take pictures of people at the gathering.

And here are pictures of my very first batch of fry that I picked the eggs of and hatched successfully.
http://photobucket.com/albums/y107/j...a%20batch%201/

What type are they? I don't know the details. I only refer to them as Lokoja. I know I can't mix them with other fish. (The original pair was from Ronnie.) And I know if I need the full name, I can always ask Ronnie

Joanne

[stormhawk]

Joanne, you'd be surprised. One of the fellas here on the forum managed to wean his gardneri "Lafia" onto pellets.

Andrew or a, if you would, let her know your methods. I know they're greedy fellas but you have a knack at making them take up prepared foods.

For Simps and Nothos they are not as easily weaned onto prepared foods. They live very short lives and require as much nutrition in the form of live foods to survive and spawn.

Guppies are almost always greedy little fellas and I can attest to that, after keeping the "drain" guppies. But yes, killies are a whole lot different in comparison to their live-bearing counterparts.

Did you know that they're both part of the same order aka Cyprinodontiformes? The only difference is that guppies are livebearers and killies are not.

Shyness is one thing but getting them out into the open is quite easy for myself at least. The key element is to make them feel secure in their new surroundings. Once they feel secure they will not attempt to hide all the time. My fulminantis males very very flashy fish and will not attempt to hide when I approach their tanks. So are my Rivulus cylindraceus males, which actually approach the front of their tank when they see a turkey baster's tip appear from the feeding "hole" at the side.

About the pictures, they're pretty nice for someone who regards herself as a "dope behind the camera". They were nicely shot, even if they were out of focus.

[Yong Foo]

Hi Everyone,

Just registered in and this is my first posting.
First of all, this is really a great site with good information on moss and Killies, and many thanks to Mr Loh for passing the lovely downoi to me a few months back, though recently it got stunted.

I have decided to post in after reading on “why Killies did not really takes off in Singapore”. Just my opinion to provide an insight of fish and moss lover(me). I’m not into Killies yet.


1.Could be a misconception that Killies can only last for only 1 year for those annual species (me too not very sure on this). They need live food to breed or to show their true colours.

2.The name/label of the Killies is a big turn off to me. It’s just too technical I think and not appealing to the general public, also sounds like a concern if we accidentally cross bred we are going to upset the pure strain.

3.Pricing though not cheap for such a small fish, but moss lovers you guys also spent lots on new moss right? Me too. So I don’t think price is an issue here, especially on this beautiful Killies fish. Fish keeping is addictive.

4.For me, I would like to have the Killies, but no intention to breed them. Just too much work to cultivate live food for them.

Killies is a good additional to a greenery planted tank. . I think to get it kicks off “advertising” is still important. If people always see a nice fish in a good planted tank, even if they don’t buy it, they will become more aware of such beautiful fishes.
Suggest local breeders/hobbyists can distribute some to those popular fish shop with good planted tank(of course they must put them into their planted tank) to promote the awareness, sort of a spread through word of mouth marketing strategy.

Also totally agreed on Deborah’s view.
Sorry for the lengthy posting.


Regards
Yong Foo

[turaco]

Yong Foo,

Welcome to the forum! I like your killi-in-a-planted tank advertising idea. Killies always show their best in a planted tank. All my spare & retired killies goes into my planted tank. Am always amazed at how beautiful they are as compare to a breeding tank. If one just want to enjoy their beauty without breeding them, their enjoyment won't last too long I guess. Also, feeding of live food in planted tank is a big no to most planters. Most just can't cater to the fish needs before long, they perish.

[hwchoy]

About the pictures, they're pretty nice for someone who regards herself as a "dope behind the camera". They were nicely shot, even if they were out of focus.

you know what? I'm going to have to recruit her for my photo-mad gang

[timebomb]

Yong Foo,

Having Killies in planted tanks is a great idea. In fact, it's always something I try to do. Fish, no matter how beautiful they may be, becomes boring after a while if they are kept in a bare tank. Plants not only bring out the colours, they also make the fish feel secure. Joanne, that's one reason your Killies are so shy. The other reason is you're overcrowding them. The last time I saw the Aphyosemion australes in your house, the tank you were keeping them in was too small.

Most Killies are not shy but some are so timid, they hide all the time. I suspect the reason they are timid is because they don't have safety in numbers. If we are able to raise many of them and keep them altogether in one tank, the shyness disappears.

Killie names are long and complex. When I first started, my reaction on seeing the name "Fundulopanchax gardneri N'sukka" was "Good Grief, what on earth kind of a name is that? And how do you pronounce such a name?" But after a while, you get the hang of it. I still have problems pronouncing Simpsonichthys but I always cheat and simply say "Simp." But don't let the latin names scare you; we use them for a good reason.

Live food isn't a big problem. Tubifex is easily available. If you're squeamish, baby or adult brine shrimps are good alternatives. It can be a big bother hatching the brine shrimp eggs but you can hatch a batch out every few days and keep the excess in your refrigerator. Daphnia is also a good source of live food if you can find them on sale at your local fish shop. The advantage of feeding brine shrimps and Daphnia is that all your fish get to eat some of it. If you feed dry food or worms to your fish, chances are the big fishes swipe the whole lot and the small ones go hungry.

Crossing Killies is considered a sin by some folks. But don't let that bother you too much. No one has the right to tell you what fish you should or should not keep. We discourage hybridisation but I've always maintain that we shouldn't condemn those who want to experiment with their Killies. Just don't spread the eggs or fish around as we don't want hybrids contaminating the Killie scene. If you keep different species of Killies in your planted tank and they hybridise, it's not a big deal. You are free to do what you like in your own backyard as long as the hybrids don't get circulated around.

The life spans for Annual Killies are about a year or so. But I have one male Nothobranchius guentheri that is more than 2 years old. Life spans depend on many factors. In the wild, they rarely live for longer than a year as the ponds in which they live dry up completely. But in our tanks, if we shower them with tender loving care, they can live much longer. In any case, life spans are relative. A Mayfly lives for only a day whereas a tortoise can live for more than a hundred years. I've always thought of my Killies to be like Achilles, the character from Greek mythology who when given the option, chose to live a "short and glorious life" instead of a "long and boring one". Some Killies have short lives but their colours are glorious. The other thing about short-life Killies, is that they breed easily and lay thousands of eggs before they die. So from a pair, you get hundreds, if not thousands. I've been in the hobby for a long time and I can tell you there's no greater satisfaction than to have a nice planted tank filled with Killies that you raise yourself. In my cube tank now, I have about 25 Simpsonichthys fulminantis and they are all raised from eggs given to me by Selena. The joy of seeing something exotic in your tank cannot be described by mere words. I'm not only delighted but I'm also proud to have fish in my tank that even the fish shops or farms do not have.

Joanne was right when she wrote that I tried to get her interested in Killies. I always try to get them interested with every hobbyist I meet but the truth is, with girls, I try harder The local aquaria scene is such that there are so few women that whenever I meet one, I'll try my best to get her hooked. Girls are less fickle than guys. Some guys who were once so passionate about Killies didn't even turn up for the gathering. I wonder sometimes if their passion was real in the first place. Whereas the few women whom I've recruited into the hobby still keep Killies and I have to say I was very glad when 3 of them showed up at the gathering. It's always more fun with women around. Right, guys?

Loh K L

[hwchoy]

KL, get the girls, the guys will follow.


and killi names aren't strange and complex, they have meanings wait till you see chinese scientific names.

[stormhawk]

Err.. add the Chinese trade names to that list of confusion.

[hwchoy]

it is actually kind of interesting if you read both latin and mandarin, as the chinese scientific names are semantic translation of the latin names. it kind of helps understanding the meaning of the latin names.