I have some Notho eggs... Guntheri (Zanzibar golds) and Rachovii (non-specific and Beira).
The Guntheri were collected April 1. I just wet them this past Sunday July 10, of the 40 eggs (as specified by my supplier - I could not actually see if there were that many in the peat) only one fry hatched....
I think the problem may have been that I keep the eggs at a lower temp than was recommended. I had them in a closet that was probably 20 to 25 degree celcius. The hatch date is probably 2 or 3 weeks beyond the 8 to 10 weeks recommended, but I figure with the lower temperature, that would extend the hatch date.
I have re-dryed the eggs and am storing them in a warmer room.
How close should you be to the estimated hatch date ? and Is it very bad for the eggs to wait several weeks or even several months beyond the hatch date ???
I've read somewhere that it is better to store eggs at a lower temperature and allow the eggs to develop more slowly.
Also, I have some Gold Australes that I got from the AKA convention in late May. They are in a separate tank as a trio. So far I have seen no eggs whatsoever. They are being fed grindal worms and FD tubifex worms, and appear to be very active and heathy, but not one egg among the plants, there is lot of java moss and plenty of plants in the tank. No other fish are with them.
They are about 2 inches long so I'm pretty sure they are mature enough to spawn.
wes
I don't pay much heed to theoretical hatch dates anymore. I regularly inspect peat and eggs, and hatch those eggs that are ready when I find them.
At high temps, I do not think it good for the eggs to reamin as ready-to-hatch-fry inside the eggs, as they can exhaust their resources and die. This is just my opinion. I expect the unhatched fry of most species can stand several weeks in the egg ready to go. But some (such as N. rosenstocki and symoensi, cannot, it would appear).
Regards
Hi wcknight
2 days agos I wet some eggs ( N.orthonotus ceramica MT03-2 ) wich was supose
to be ready on the next October.... and afters 2 hours it was full of fry over 70 vigorous
and healthy. ( my air conditioning was broken and it was at worst time on my fishroom
it was 36 celcius for 2 weeks )
Few monts agos a friend send me some eggs of N.palmquisti but by the date
they was overs of 4 monts and wen I wet the eggs it was full of fry, overs 30
I thinks so many thing can change the date of weting, if your peat is more or
less in humidity that can change the number and the time of the diapose you can
said the same with the température lower or higher temps can change the date
like the humidity
This is from my limited experience but I thinks I am not so far from the reality
Sorry for my English I am from the Quebec and it's not my first language
Marc P
Gloup-Gloup
I agree in principle with the previous points of views.
One should check peats for development.
But also pay extra attention to advice given from the breeder.
One example, recommended incubation time listed in the 1980-ies does not longer apply even if the species are the same.
Latest example in my own experience was very fast developing Megalebias elongatus eggs in accordance to the breeders advice compared to the advice listed in killi data-online.
Erik Thurfjell
SKS 138, BKA 838-05, AKA 08998, SAA 251
Erik, I'm curious but what made you say so?Originally Posted by erikthur
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
I admit that might be sort of an overstatement.
But for example Aus. nigripinnis is nowadays considered to have a shorter incubation time.
The same goes for Fund. thierryi and N. rachovii.
Compared to my "holy book" (Cassel in Swedish - sorry about that).
Erik Thurfjell
SKS 138, BKA 838-05, AKA 08998, SAA 251
Erik, give me some figures. At your storage temps and with book reference, how much difference is there between then (1980's) and now?
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Storage temperatures are I guess supposed to be in-door Scandinavian temperatures of the 1980-ies - somewhere around 18-22 celsius.
And considering Aus nigripinnis the incubation lag was in the 80-ies suggested to be 5 months instead of 2-4 months.
Considering the other two species I mentioned, the suggestions I now read that the the suggested time by Huber and Cassel can be interpreted as similar. I must have confused them with suggested incubation times I have seen elsewhere, may-be suggestion of breeders. Sorry about that.
Erik Thurfjell
SKS 138, BKA 838-05, AKA 08998, SAA 251
What will happen if the eggs will be wet to early? Will there be any damage to the eggs there are not ready?
Best Regards
Jakob Ejlersen
SKS 28
Wes.
I think Tyrone's suggestion is a good one. Ignore the dates. Just observe the eggs closely. When there are eyes and tails, wet them.
As for your australes, it's highly unlikely you will be able to spot the eggs if the tank is full of plants. Chances are if they spawn, the fish will lay their eggs on the mosses. Take them out for a closer look as it is very difficult to see the eggs when everything's under water.
Jakob,
As far as I know, no harm will come to the eggs even if you wet them repeatedly. I have on a couple of occasions, re-dry peat and on re-wetting, got many fry.
Loh K L
Hi KL et al,
In the recent JAKA Bob Morenski makes the claim (without any supporting data mind you) that high incubation temps cause more belly-sliders. I can't say this has been my experience at all. The furzeri, rachovii and orthonotus eggs I have incubated at 27degC have all yielded perfectly healthy fry after only 3 weeks at such temperatures. Likewise, after 6 weeks in peat I have got fantastic hatches of rachovii Beira 98 at temperatures exceeding 26degC. What are your experiences in Singapore where I doubt the ambient temp is below 27degC?
As a cautionary note, at such high temps, if one does not hatch the eggs to transfer them to cooler conditions after they eye-up the fry are weeker and there is a higher incidence of belly-sliders compared to the ones hatched at 3 weeks.
Your opinions?
I've heard from some bellysliders are caused by wetting the eggs a little too early or too late. Since egg development is accelerated at high temps that could explain Bob's bellysliders. Some highschoolers did a cool experiment involving sex ratios...I think some needs to try one with bellysliders. Hmm...with science fair coming up this year who knows?
~Joseph
Well, maybe some people are getting confused here. How are you supposed to observe the eggs closely when they are embedded in peat?
Eggs incubated in peat moss do not become embedded in it. The peat sticks to some of the eggs and cover them completely but with close observation, it's not difficult to find eggs that are free from peat . Here's a picture which I took just 2 weeks ago:
There are at least 3 eggs in the picture. Can you see them or do I have to point them out to you? So tell me, who's confused?
Loh K L
Tyrone, when I wet Notho eggs, I use water straight from the taps. The temperature would be about 29 to 30 C, I think. I don't know if Bob Morenski's claim is true but as far as I can remember, I've never seen belly-sliders among my Notho fry. I'm not making another incredulous claim, mind you. I've seen belly-sliders among my Simpsonichthys and Austrolebias but never in my Nothos.
Loh K L
Well, I can see them.. but not with ease..Eggs incubated in peat moss do not become embedded in it. The peat sticks to some of the eggs and cover them completely but with close observation, it's not difficult to find eggs that are free from peat . Here's a picture which I took just 2 weeks ago:
There are at least 3 eggs in the picture. Can you see them or do I have to point them out to you? So tell me, who's confused?
Loh K L
Well... In our humble opinions high temps don't cause belly sliding in Nothos... but negligence in observing hatching times may.
Any one think we should cobble together an article on high temp Notho hatching to challenge sage old Bob?
My best rachovii hatches have been had when the eggs were incubated at HIGH temps. Best of all, I only had to wait 6 weeks and not 6 months!
tt4n
I have no intention of challenging anyone but what do you suggest we do, Tyrone. I have a bag of N. rachovii eggs due for hatching in about a month's time. I can do a photo-record of the wetting process and keep a record on the number of fry etc but what is a good method to prove that high temperature don't cause belly-sliding?
Loh K L
Well, I think making notes on this new hatch is very NB. Accurate Data is very important. From the AKA article he seems to claim a direct correlation: high temp yield belly-sliders. I think we have more than enough data to refute that causal link. When his next article will be published I don't know... Marshall has a policy of waiting about 2 years! But Bob's is a column...
About publication, we can try to compete in the AKA journal or publish in the BKA instead which will probably run more of you pics and much faster to publication. (But speed isn't really what we want. No-one likes a rush job.)
I can write up my account working with furzeri and orthonotus and rachovii at temps about 25 degC and publish them here, then you (and others) can add your own... We can then polish the article and then publish a short abstract in the AKA journal or BKA journal, and people can read it here and then comment. I feel an open commentary is more valuable than an "we say so" article. This is the virtue of internet communication!
what you think?
I think it's a great idea, Tyrone. I'll try to keep a meticulous record of the health of the N. rachovii fry when I hatch them. Since temperature is the key factor with this project, I'll keep a record of it at all stages, including the temperature in which the eggs are incubated.
If you have the time, please let us know what exactly was in Bob's report. Did he state that belly-sliding is caused by high temperatures during egg incubation or during wetting? A summary of Bob's article would be great.
Loh K L
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