Should we form an official Killifish Club?

[PohSan]

Gee, just saw this, could you delete one vote?

The poll is set to expire in 10 days. It should be soon. Let's see how many more will take part in the poll.

Loh K L

Not to be offend but KL, I don't see the need to continue the poll anymore. You, as an administrator and poll starter has already rejected the idea of setting up a club. That will definately stop most of the members to vote further.

Regards,
Ong Poh San

[TyroneGenade]

In case you haven't noticed, you already have a club:

---It holds regular (or used to hold regular) meetings (in a petstore)
---It has a new bulletin/forum (this place)
---It has an fish & egg exchange (again here)
---a network of people working to maintain the forum, spread information, and regular instructs newbies.

From my vantage point, the Singapore Killifish Club already exists and is thriving. It also has perhaps one of the more active memberships about to boot!

So, the question should be whether you go formal? I cannot venture an opinion on this for reason that I do not know what the Singapore law has to say. If the laws are restrictive, then going formal can only complicate matters (because that is all what big government is good for). If the laws are uninhibitory, then go formal! I for one, look forward to attending the Singapore Killifish Club Show!!!

tt

[timebomb]

Not to be offend but KL, I don't see the need to continue the poll anymore. You, as an administrator and poll starter has already rejected the idea of setting up a club. That will definately stop most of the members to vote further.

No offense taken, Poh San. But the goal of the poll is to gauge the perception on the ground, not for making a decision on whether it's a good idea to form a club. I know some of you may feel let down that as an administrator, I take such a strong stand against forming a club. But believe me, I do that for the common good.

Jianyang thought, as a club, we can go international. He wasn't worried about the small number of persons who participated in the poll. He was also hopeful that the moss-lovers in this forum will join the club. Ronnie was disappointed but he took consolation that the few who participated were in favour of forming a club. I don't know how to put this to you all nicely but I have to say you're "clutching at straws". In your desire to form a club, you're ignoring the statistics. I've seen this happened many times with friends who went into business. When someone's full of enthusiasm, he refuses to acknowledge the facts. He won't listen to good advice. In fact, he would be pissed if anyone tells him his business idea won't work. He will be full of optimism and he will take the plunge, no matter how suicidal it may be.

Last time I checked, there are 9 votes, 8 for and 1 against. We know Bill voted so we have to subtract one from 8 which makes 7 for and 1 against.
Please don't ignore the numbers. They tell us a lot. If say, 50 persons voted for a club, I would say there's hope.
But only 7 want a club which would mean even if all volunteer, we can't even form a proper committee. We can't count on the moss-lovers. Many don't even know we're debating this topic as they don't come to Killies Arena to read the posts here.

I know you feel let down and the tone of my posts seem harsh at times. On a few occasions, I didn't want to hurt people's feelings so I tried to be gentle with my warnings. When their businesses collapse, I regret not using stronger words to stop them at the start. You may feel hurt now but take it from me, it's better to hurt a little now than to hurt a lot later when the club fails.

Don't clutch at straws. We'll still drown in the end.

Loh K L

[timebomb]

I cannot venture an opinion on this for reason that I do not know what the Singapore law has to say. If the laws are restrictive, then going formal can only complicate matters (because that is all what big government is good for). If the laws are uninhibitory, then go formal! I for one, look forward to attending the Singapore Killifish Club Show!!!

Tyrone, it used to be that in Singapore, the laws were such it was a big hassle to form a club. Then, the government was wary of clubs and societies. It's a baggage from the old days when triad societies (gangster clubs) were rampant in Singapore. But now, things are easier. As far as I know, we can even register a club online. But that isn't the point.

As you have noticed, there's little that a club can do that this forum cannot. Frankly, if we want to hold a Killifish show now, we can do that too as an informal group. Killies.com has a good reputation with the commercial entities in Singapore. Fish shop owners think highly of us as we don't put pressure on them to reduce prices by rounding up bulk orders. They also see us as being open and honest when we ask all forum users to put down their real names. What they detest is when anonymous posters bad-mouth them in forums. They trust us as we're non-commercial. We're probably the only forum around where you don't find any commercial logos on display. Fish shop owners recognise that we're not their competitors but a group who promotes the hobby and bring them more business.

If we ask, many fish shops will support our activities. But now isn't the time to hold a Killifish show. We may have many species but they're in the hands of a few. The spread isn't there.

Loh K L

[RonWill]

To say I'm disappointed is an understatement. I admit being hopeful to see at least 20 votes but with only 8, I can't even smell somebody else's fart on a windy day.

Think I'll slap the living daylights out of the next chap who asks, "How come we don't have a Killie club?". [Where were you when it matters most?]

Rome wasn't built in a day, so I shall remain optimistic. Let's try the poll again next year and see if the results are any better.

[Crazy Dragon]

Hi to all,

I am the only one who casted a rejected vote at this point of time. I have a few words to say in support of my vote.

My personal opinion is that I like the way this forum works now, which is almost like a club, except that there is no appointment assigned to individual as required by forming a club.

I totally agree with what Mr Loh KL said about Singaporean, about our life style. Moreover, there are not really many participants in Killie Forum compared to other existing forums, not because this forum is not good enough but because Killie is not a well known in Singapore compared to Discus and Arowana and Betta.

Having a formal club which also mean that someone needs to hold appointment and indirectly it become a responsibility and burden to that person and with the lfestyle we have in Singapore, especially work commitment and stress, I personally do not want anymore of that, not because I am irresponsible.

I like the way it works now where everyone can come to this forum with their questions and contributions.

Lastly, we are here to enjoy this hobby, not to take on another responsibility and add another stress and burden in managing a formal club. Keep it this way.

Sorry if I did not express myself clearly or I have offended anyone.


regards
hkyong

[whuntley]

There once was a man with a lot of wisdom and insight. He started this forum and made it what it is, a thing to be proud of. When he sees social and cultural arguments against a club, and he is right there on the ground, then I say listen to him. Listen very carefully.

We enjoy coming here to pontificate, get information, share fish and plants, so the additional benefits of a formal club must be weighed against those already available benefits. In my opinion, KL (and HK) are probably right. Some day, when you have a big bunch of young eager breeders, who are willing to do a lot of work for a bit more, then that may be the right time to try to put the Singapore hobby more prominantly on the international maps.

Meanwhile work on diligently cultivating your contacts in China, India, and all over SE Asia, as well as those in Europe, SA and here in NA. Do a good job on keeping core species going, and work with KCC, SAA and others on conservation. Select a few standards for such things as correct nomenclature, so all work off the same page. Work on getting the unique aspects of husbandry solved for the SG situation and make life much easier for each generation of newbies.

I hope my sudden turnaround doesn't make KL faint. If I had a vote, I'd probably vote to cancel Bill's right now.

Wright

[timebomb]

Rome wasn't built in a day, so I shall remain optimistic. Let's try the poll again next year and see if the results are any better.

Great idea, Ronnie. And great spirits too. I'm not in favour of a club but that does not mean forever. I do believe the day will come when there's sufficient interest to form one.

As Yong HK has pointed out, they (potential Killifish breeders) are out there. They're in various forums now, learning how to keep and breed fish like Bettas, Guppies and Goldfish. Eventually, they will get tired of their fish and they will come here, asking for Killies. Heck, when you talk about Bettas, Guppies, Goldfish, etc. your'e talking of only one genus of fish. Whereas when we talk of Killies, we're talking of more than 60 genus and 800 species. No other group of fish comes close. Killifish is a lifelong addiction. All we have to do is be patient and continue with what we have always done in Killies.com.

I hope my sudden turnaround doesn't make KL faint. If I had a vote, I'd probably vote to cancel Bill's right now.

I didn't faint but you almost made me fall off my chair, Wright. Thanks for the compliments. Even though you didn't participate in the poll, to me, your vote counts more than anyone else's.

Loh K L

[ruyle]

Wright's post above is yet another reason why it's so nice to have him
around The fact that both he and KL are intent on canceling my one,
singular, measly little vote--makes me feel very secure, warm, and
special I think I feel a tear forming in one eye....this is becoming
a very emotional moment for me...I'll go now

Bill

[whuntley]

Bill,

And, I'm rolling up my pants so they don't get soiled in it.

Wright

[ruyle]

And, I'm rolling up my pants so they don't get soiled in it.
Wright

That's certainly a "cooler" alternative than wearing hip waders with the
temps you're experiencing in Bishop!

Bill

[RonWill]

Hi Yong,
As a relatively new member of this killie community, you may not be aware of the effort and commitment undertaken to bring the forum to what it is today.

The regulars, administrators and moderators included, are here voluntarily to guide, nuture and to inculcate the conservative aspects of killiekeeping for those who wish to go beyond 'pretty fishes in an aquarium'.

Every hobbyist here are at different levels of killifish appreciation but your statement that, "but because Killie is not a well known in Singapore compared to Discus and Arowana and Betta" contradicts your negative vote, in that all three facet of the hobby ARE represented by clubs or society, including the humble Guppy. By not having a club, no killifish can be benched or exhibited. [you could, of course, have overlooked that fact] I would welcome any fresh approach from you, how we can bring killifishes to a broader spectrum of hobbyists or general public.

As for responsibilities, nothing can be achieved without commitment, be it from those who organised mass egg orders, fish food or other fish related products.

However, to make a generalized statement that, "we are here to enjoy this hobby, not to take on another responsibility" IMHO, undermines the effort of those who makes this place ticks.

I believe there would be no stress if we all came in to read but not post. Not much fun, I think, but shall we keep it this way?

[Crazy Dragon]

Hi Ronnie,

I am sorry if I did not express my thought clearly as I stated in my previous posting.

Although I am new to Killie, not to mention about his forum, I like the way this forum is being managed and the rules and regulations.

I recognise the effort of the all the active members and moderators to bring this forum to today's state. Their willingness to share and help. No doubt at all.

However, I still must admit that Killie is not well known in Singapore compared to Arowana, Discus and Betta, just a few examples. My personal opinion is not because the latter 3 have a club but because of the easy accessibilty (One of the reasons) to these fish in Singapore. When I want to start this killie, I have had a hard time looking for killie in the local fish shops. When I told my friend about killie, I would say that at least 95% never heard of it (maybe I have a wrong group of friends).

What this forum offers to its members and public is definitely good and informative and it has help me in this hobby.

I believe there would be no stress if we all came in to read but not post. Not much fun, I think, but shall we keep it this way?

Well, I must admit that I have not posted more than 5 posts including this one but then I remembered reading one of the posting saying that we should search through on the past postings before putting our questions forward which I am still doing so. I have nothing to contribute as still trying very hard to keep my killie alive and healthy. I don't think posting is stressful and I really admire those who posted their successful killie and I would definitely looking towards one day when I can be like you and others to help the new hobbyist to killie.

I would welcome any fresh approach from you, how we can bring killifishes to a broader spectrum of hobbyists or general public.

OK. I will give you my 2 cents worth when I have more time to write.

Lastly, why fix something when it is not damaged. I must admit that I did not express myself well enough as being lowly educated.

regards
hkyong

[Crazy Dragon]

Hi Ronnie,

Here are some ideas but could have been thought and discussed by some of you already.

1) School: About a month back or so, I attended the MOE (Ministry of Education) Excel exhibition where schools (mainly primary schools) show and exhibit some of the projects they did, and there are a few that have a big crowd. There are projects on orchid and wheatgrass. If Killifish can be introduced to school as a project for the student and likelyhood it may show up in the exhibition in next year or so.

I was drawn to killifish hobby some time early this year, mainly by the way killie eggs can be incubated, that is why I think it can be an interesting project for school to embark on.

2) Local fish shop. I am sure that many fish shops may not know how to handle killie. If we can promote through most of the LFSs and if one or 2 tanks in the shop can be reserved for displaying or selling of killifish with a short write up of the fish, it may stirr up some interests. Do this through as many LFS as possible.

3) I don't see many Killie's members selling the fish or eggs through this forum. I would think that maybe killie should be made available in other local fish forum too and more frequently. Bring Killifish to more hobbyist through other fish forum and at the same time promote this forum.


Well, this is what I have. May not be new as you may have already thought of it.

Regards

[stormhawk]

Hi Yong,

Ideas are always appreciated, even if they have been discussed before previously. The idea of introducing the killie eggs as a school project is workable however we need a certain amount of good eggs to work around with. If the species are not as prolific as we want them to be, the project may fail. So in short it very much depends on whether the fishes themselves will produce a good number of eggs for such a project.

You're right about the LFSes. Most don't really know how to handle the killies. Some don't even feed them enough to the point that the poor fish become skinny animals on the brink of death. Educating them is one thing, but whether they're willing to accept and do what is required is another issue altogether. Some parties will do it willingly, others might not appreciate such help. To them they may view it as a hindrance rather than help.

The thing about selling fish and eggs online is that first of all, not all of the killies are easy to breed. And then there is the need for live fish rather than to wait for the eggs to reach wetting stage, especially for the annuals. On occasions people will complain if the eggs don't hatch. But then there are so many variables that they often very much overlook such details and pin the blame on the seller.

Again some of the species are very very difficult to spawn. I can tell because some of them just stop breeding when the weather gets too warm or they just don't want to spawn at all even if the weather is cool. Bringing killifish to other forums can be done, however some of the members in the other forums tend to view killies as "feeders" for larger fish or just some ornamental fish meant for community tanks. Worst still, some will totally overlook the fact that most killies need live foods in their diet. There's always a lazy streak in someone and when these people decide their fish is too difficult to handle, they just leave it to eat or starve.

Nonetheless, these ideas can be tried, but like they say, your results may vary.