Epiplatys Annulatus eggs/tank Q?s

[neb123]

Hello all,
Recently I received some ANN eggs from a breeder off aquabid. The eggs came on some java moss which I put in a 2.5 gal tank with fresh treated water. However, after a week or so I noticed most of the eggs had been killed by fungus. Sooo the breeder sent me a new batch of eggs, which i have placed in a heavily planted 5 gal tank. The tank has been up and running for about 3-4 months, and has nothing in it except for plants and some snails. The ph is 6.8 and the temp is about mid 70s. The breeder told me these fry are extremely small, so what is the best way to look for them to see if these eggs hatched in such a densely planted tank? also i was a little worried about the snails, im assuming they will leave the eggs alone and wont eat them? the snails are just regular old common snails that hitched a ride on my plants. Also, since my tank is so heavily planted, there should be more than enough infusoria and such for these fry to eat, so when should i begin adding bbs. The java moss i received the eggs on was in a breeding tank for about a week before they were shipped to me so im assuming they should be regularly hatching out in the next week or so. Let me know what you think and if you have any suggestions at all, thanks!
-Nick B

[stormhawk]

Hi Nick,

The fry will be close to the water surface and you can spot them easily by the iridescent spot on the forehead.

I've never raised ANN fry before so I can't help you much. However we have a resident ANN breeder and I hope he'll help you out here.

[timebomb]

The only occasions when I had success with ANN eggs were when I transferred the plants from the breeding tank into another one where there were no fish. I don't believe snails eat the eggs but I kind of suspect the ANN parents do. Or they probably eat the fry when they hatched.

Nick, can't help you much but I think it's quite obvious that you shouldn't start feeding baby brine shrimp if there aren't any fry. ANN fry are small but they are large enough to be seen by the naked eye. Usually, they swim at the surface. Take a closer look. It could be there are already fry but you didn't notice.

Loh K L

[neb123]

thanks for response guys,
the problem with seeing them at the surface is that there is a thick layer of dillweed, i should have mentioned that before, i use it in my other killie tanks to keep them from jumping out, so its tough too really see past an inch or so from the sides, thats why i was wondering if i cant see them what age should they be big enough to eat bbs
any other info would still be appreciated, thanks again guys
-Nick

[Al Baldwin]

Usually the adults ignore the very tiny fry but most breeders of ANN claim they are preyed upon by older and larger siblings. Thus a very heavily planted tank helps to give the needed cover so the little ones can survive and grow to a size able to compete with older siblings.

Freshly hatched ANN tend to hang at the surface (meniscus) to feed on micro live food which will propagate in a well planted tank. I would wait almost a week before feeding baby brine shrimp so the fry have the ability to catch and eat them. Beware of overfeeding as this will foul the water and endanger the fry. With careful feeding the fry will grow rapidly and you will see them start to colour up with the stripes which ANN is known for.

[RonWill]

...so what is the best way to look for them to see if these eggs hatched in such a densely planted tank?

Nick, if you have plenty of dillweed (duckweed???), you probably wouldn't be able to find the young ANN fry which are terribly tiny. Personally, I've never gotten any shipped ANN eggs to hatch but that was ages ago and I wasn't equipped with the experience.

A 2.5gal tank would have been fine. Shallow water and infusoria is your best bet for tiny ANNs to survive. I use take-aways and shoebox sized containers for growout.

The rest of the pics and annulatus album is here.

Sort out the fry as they grow. Once the fry start showing bands on their body, they will predate on the slower developing siblings. Parents usually leave them alone, provided they are not starved.

BBS will do no good for new ANN fry as they're too big. If you have moina, a small squirt will help the fry and keep the water from fouling.

Failing which, cultivate infusoria or get a ready-to-harvest vinegar eel culture. Microworms won't help as ANN fry feed off at the surface.

There are previous discussions regarding breeding and care of annulatus. 'Search' feature does work and if you have further doubts, follow-up in this thread. I don't check my PM Inbox these days and it's probably filled to the brim already.

[Please edit your profile to show location. Much appreciated. Thanks]

[RonWill]

However we have a resident ANN breeder and I hope he'll help you out here.

WOW!! I didn't know that! Whom might he or she be?

[stormhawk]

Doh! Who else but you yourself.

[Al Baldwin]

The iridescent spot on the forehead mentioned by StormHawk is known as the pineal gland which acts like a third eye. When at the surface if the light source is blocked by a preditor overhead the pineal gland detects the change and the fish will swim for cover to avoid being grabbed and eaten.

Ron how is the project to breed ANN with red colouration doing?

[whuntley]

I find new ANN babies easily. Raising them is another matter! After dark, I remove the (mandatory*) tank cover and shine an electric torch (we call it a flashlight) down into the top surface.

The retroreflective spot shines like a tiny headlamp in the reflection from the light. Carefully inspect the meniscus (curved surface where water meets glass), as the newest babies like to hide in it. Yes, they are that tiny.

Use your flat-bottomed Chinese soup spoon to dip them out as they show up, if the tank contains juveniles. Wonderful tool for ANN! [Adults usually won't eat babies.]

In my experience, the tiny eggs are eagerly eaten by many species of snails, so those are banned from my ANN breeding/hatching tanks. Also watch closely for other egg/fry predators, like flatworms and Hydra.

Moving mops with eggs doesn't seem to work well, so natural hatching in the parent's tank is most productive for me. I like thick Water Sprite roots, Java moss, and/or sunken fibrous peat (or monkey fur?) as spawning media.

Beside the normal infusoria present in a well-planted tank, I like to add some green water (Euglena species?) for a good first food. They grow slowly, and it may be days before you see them take microworms or bbs.

Wright
_____________________
* Even if the ANN don't jump out (and they will), you need good healthy floating plants. In our dry climate, Water Sprite needs the higher humidity of a well-covered tank to thrive. YMMV in SG.

[Scott_sg]

Wright is right

A small flash light is a great way to find baby fish, if you hold it at an angle to the water surface you can't miss them.
Works not just for the eye spots but also for eyes..
In summer in Sydney it is also a popular way to catch prawns (shrimps) in the sea lakes, wading through the water with a light and dip net. I guess they still do it now, but we used to have great fun as kids.
I use a flash light for hunting for the last couple of fry from a hatching tray.

Scott.

[whuntley]

In our Central Valley wetlands, we have giant bullfrogs that were imported from Louisiana. [They gave rise to the great Mark Twain story about Calaveras County and its jumping frogs.]

Many is the night I spent wearing a headlamp, and gigging (spearing) the frogs frozen in the beam. We located them by their eye reflections, just like Scott and the shrimps. The legs are really good when skinned and rolled in Ritz cracker crumbs before frying in peanut oil.

On those trips, the wives and kids caught catfish all night and we all went to the San Juaquin river to catch a big mess of crayfish the next morning. The guys had a huge job skinning and cleaning all those delicacies.

We called the feast that night our "Swamp Feed."

Bill lives in good country for that kind of outing, I think. Bet he never does it, tho.

Wright

[RonWill]

Ron how is the project to breed ANN with red colouration doing?

Hi Al, the ANNs are breeding true and doing fine and have no less than 4 setups with growing-out and breeding groups. My observation is that when young, only the normal bandings and stripes in the caudal will be present. As the male mature, the reds in the anal fin will become more obvious. There is another paired fin, just before the anal fin, and I don't know what these are called but there's also a small band of red at the edges.

I recently shipped 3pairs of 1-inch ANNs to the UK and these arrived safely (wished it was the same scenario shipping to USA). A drip-tube with mini ball valve was included in the package for slow overnight drip-acclimatization to the buyer's local water. From the latest email I received, the fishes are doing fine there.

Thanks for enlightening me on how the 'pineal gland' works. I've often wondered how they manage to see me and scoot off, whenever I walk past their trays.

BTW, I need apologise to those who queried to buy the ANNs. I'm not ready to release them locally nor am willing to have my work undone before I have them firmly established amongst the more dedicated hobbyists.

[wHeEzO]

I actually collect ANN eggs. My first time, I couldn't tell where the eggs were. They were so tiny. I got the hang of it and I have been collecting eggs lately. I just pick them out of the mop and put them in a petri dish. Heh, I can spend quite some time looking for those eggs. I usually get around 8-15 every 3 days from a trio. I have probably 30-40 eggs at the moment and 10 fry.

After they hatch, I would toss them into my 20g planted shrimp tank and let them just feed on whatever is there. I also have a very fine powder that they eat when they are finished with their yolk sack. When they are big enough to eat newly hatched ANN fry, I take them out to their own tank. The fry always swim on top, they are pretty easy to find.

Just a few days ago, I decided to try the natural setup with ANN. It's heavily planted with my lucky mop ^^. It's a 4-way betta tank, so there are slots for 3 dividers. I don't use any dividers but I use a plastic mesh piece on one end. This is so, tiny fry can swim through and be safe from hungry parents. I'll let you know how this goes.

[timebomb]

A third eye!! How interesting. I thought only Tibetian Lamas have them.

Loh K L

[RonWill]

Goes to show that we really do learn something new everyday. Who says we can't teach old dogs new tricks!

Henry,
My eyesight is going from bad to worse and can't really seach for eggs, not even when wearing a head-loupe. ANN eggs are tiny and besides time constraint, I risk contaminating them from handling. IME, the ANNs do best if I leave them alone.

I usually get around 8-15 every 3 days from a trio. I have probably 30-40 eggs at the moment and 10 fry

That's a very healthy collection and please allow me to be blunt.

I love ANNs and we don't have that population in our SG Census (yes, I checked already). I would like to buy a bunch of eggs from the "Guinea CI 00" population, packed in breather bags and sent via EMS. If you have extra eggs from other species that isn't listed in the Census, we can arrange for a consolidated shipment before the weather goes south. I'll try my best to arrange for fellow SG members to help maintain them.

Payment in advance can be transferred via Paypal, so drop me an email to exchange details. Many thanks in advance!

Back to the ANNs...
I'm curious what 'very fine powder' you're using. Is that OSI's APR or other commercially available fry food?

BTW, I tried that 'divider & net' idea but it didn't work as well for me. How long does it take before the fry realizes that that is the 'safe zone'?

Side Note:
Choy and Jian Yang, the Killifish Census at Hexazona still doesn't work

[stormhawk]

Ron, the census was converted to PDF format. I notified via the census thread.

[RonWill]

Ron, the census was converted to PDF format...

Jian Yang, is it possible to still leave behind a copy in html? I refer to that page quite often to check for typos and it's a matter of copy & paste.

Possible, I know, to 'text select' within PDF but one less opened application means less resource overhead. As is, I have one too many browser windows opened already

[Off topic: Anyone knows how to teach the forum's dictionary to remember learned words??]

[stormhawk]

Okay I'll leave one behind in HTML format.

[wHeEzO]

Hey Ron,
I haven't had trouble handling eggs. When I first received them last year, I collected the eggs just like I've done with other killis.

I have never shipped these eggs before so I am not sure how they will do.
I also have had trouble shipping out of US. Some people get it on time and some people have huge delays. If I were to send you some, I'd probably only want eggs in return if possible(or fish). Although money is still good lol, I'll just buy eggs elsewhere. I am still working on setting up tanks, gotta find a spot for a new rack (shhhhh... ) I'll sneak it in when my dad isn't home and set up everything, then it'll be too late.

The fry powder was purchased at a lfs. He had a little tub of it and one scoop(about teaspoon size) was $2. I bought 2 scoops and I still have plenty since I don't need to feed them the powder when they are large enough to eat bbs. I don't know the name of it, it's yellow and that all newborn fry can eat it. (as stated by the owner) I originally bought it for newly hatched nothos.

I just started the divider method. I am not too sure how it would work but my guess is that the fry will be chased by the parents and end up inside the 'safe' area. While they are inside that area, I assume they may stay since there isn't anything chasing them away. If they wander out, they may just get chased again and swim back. I doubt that after the second time most would not leave the area??
I have to let you know how it goes. I placed one fry in the safe area and he hasn't left that area yet (it's been a week)