SAA Discussions

[Steffen Hellner]

Hi to all,

I am somewhat overwhelmed by the positive reaction of my joining to this forum. Thank you. Regarding the two species named after me, the first, S. hellneri, I discovered myself and remembering the adventure it was to get there and find the fish, still makes me happy and proud. The second, Moema hellneri was totally unexpected and is a special honor to me as it is for my support of science by donating material and information to Dr. Costa. More, as I am a dedicated fan of Moema and have bred them all, to have my name in this genus is just the cream on the coffee.;-)

Thanks for the offer of eggs, I will gladly accept this and offer my support in obtaining eggs of fish you seek. Actually my stock of SAA is limited and I am more into Fundulopanchax and Aphyosemion. Have a big bunch of Moema quiii coming up. To me the most thrilling Moema as it is very difficult to maintain and breed. More on this when the 2nd generation is present.

This year I didn´t breed many fish, only kept my strains as I am building a new house. And a new fishroom with floor heating, rainwater-tab, everything specially designed for my needs (in fact of the fish) on 25 square meters. Am very much into Caudata (Salamanders, Newts) for some years now. Seems as if I am infected by them as much as by the killis.;-)

The only species I am actually looking for is the S. hellneri from, if possible from Malhada. Thsi strain was distirbuted under the code BHS 95 (Brazil Hellner Schoelzel 1995). All S. hellneri execept the ones from sao Francisco are most probably from this location. I know of no other imported locations.

My actual fish list (only killis):

Moema quiii CI 2005, F1
M. hellneri Bellavista, F2

Simpsonichthys carlettoi Guanambi, F2

Aphyolebias rubrocaudatus Km 153, CI 2005, F1

Pituna compacta Tocantins

Fundulopanchax:
- sjoestedtii Loé
- amieti Sud Sanaga
- kunzi GBH 01/15 Makokou, F6
- robertsoni
- sp. Korup nat. Park
- mirabilis Tinto, F1

Aphyosemion:
- cameronense GBH 01/15 Makokou, F3
- sp. BITTER GBH 01/25, F3
- primigenium GBB 04/X
- ogoense GBB 04/X, F2
- pyrophore GBB 04/X, F2
- hanneloreae wuendschi GBB 04/X, F1
- mimbon (code not in mind)

Diapteron:
- kunzi
- cyanostictum GBN 88/29 Sam

Epiplatys:
- huberi GBB 04/X, F1

Chromaphyosemion:
- alpha Cape Esterias
- punctulatum (code not in mind)
- lugens (code not in mind) Affan Essokie
- sp. (code not in mind)
- poliaki Bolifamba

Some of the codes I don´t have in mind as they are very long and I have the fish from the KCF convention 10 days ago. The codes for the GBB 04 are not public yet and replaced by an X.

Soon I will have Aphyolebias schleseri from a friend. Oh, the eggs I have from Aphyolebias rubrocaudatus are from a male with a completely orange tailfin! Selected it out of a larger import. Wonderful fish.
The fish I am hunting for years is the Austrolebias nigripinnis from Franquia, Uruguay. This is a green nigripinnis. Saw it at a DKG convention but wasn´t present to bit for the pair.

More than this I can only offer my help in any question you have on killifish. From my brief insight into this forum I found that the people here are very enthusiastic which is great to me. And I liked the infancy stage when I joined the killi hobby in 1975 here in germany. Keep that up! Professionalism is not good for enthusiasm. I think I still look at killis with the eyes of a young boy. Every new species makes me discover the world anew.

A good SAA to start with? Depends on your situation. If you can offer temperate conditions there is the stunnig Austr. nigripinnis. Any of the locations are very easy to maintain and breed if you don´t keep them too warm. They have been found at Maschwitz in waters which were acid and 2 meters of in a ditch with unmeasurably high hardness and pH of 8. And don´t overstore the peat, they will usually be ready after 4 weeks. If you have it a little warmer and constant, then try the S. flammeus, flavicaudatus, flagellatus, marginatus, picturatus or bokermanni. Or whitei or. papilliferus. All of these are extremely prolific and easy going. But always remember: the Simpsonichthys don´t like fresh peat in any form nor cocopeat (often kills everything off!) as they are not bound to acid waters (exceptions: fulminantis, zonatus, santanae, boitonei, whitei, papilliferus, constanciae). Fresh peat will make the water too acid and the fine floating parts of the peat can close the gill rakers and make the fish breath heavy and kill them. The wild fish of S. hellneri where the most sensitive to peat and showed severe problems with skin, gills and metabolism. Since I transferred them onto clay all symptoms vanished. The strains today are somewhat adopted but still not prolific as they can be. Use only well rinsed, older peat for spwaning them. When not spawning, keep them in tap water of 7 pH up to 7.5. They will do much better. Ohter annuals like Leptolebias, Gnatholebias, Pterolebias will like sour waters and the peat. Moemas as well with the exception of M. quiii. With these I have made the same experience as with most Simpsonichthys. They unwrap their skin in acid water!

So try either Austr. nigripinnis (from freeze to 20 °C) or flammeus (one of the most beautiful anyway) at 20-25 °C.

My book is out of print in German and English, only the Czechian edition is available still. But I never say never if there wasn´t´the possibilty do write a new one. There occasionally are single volumes offered in the book or pet trade. Or used ones at amazon.com or ebay.

Haven´t participated in the volume 6 of the Mergus/Aquarium Atlas simply because I had a lot of other work and my divorce at that time. See if there will be a Vol. 7 and I will most probably contribute again.

Cheers to all,

Steffen

[stormhawk]

Steffen, Simp. flagellatus is a beautiful species, unfortunately it seems to be uncommon in the hobby. It is no doubt a species in its own right, even if for many years, it was considered as part of Simp. flavicaudatus. I've never seen either species live here but that doesn't mean I won't give them a try.

Moema quiii is a beautiful and large species. I think the name is synonymous with Moema ortegai, but still, its a worthy species for anyone with enough space to house them. They prey on Aphyolebias rubrocaudatus 153 in the wild if I remember what was said on Huber's article in the Nov 2003? issue of Freshwater and Marine Aquarium (FAMA).

I will probably obtain Simp. hellneri eggs sometime early next year, if news is favourable from my friends and I'll let you know regarding this.

Pituna compacta is an interesting species and well worth the time to handle. I haven't tried it yet but when tank space is available, I'll give it a shot.

Of the other species on your list, I'd say I have a soft spot for Chrom. lugens. It is a unique species with its dark dusky colours, but as always, uncommon in the hobby.

[zezinho]

Steffen I cal also try to obtain some eggs of this fish, from friends in Brasil.

[zezinho]

And what fish is this?

[stormhawk]

That's Gnatholebias zonatus, a beautiful annual from Venezuela.

[zezinho]

But gnatholebias and simp, don't have nothing in common, do they?
One is from Brasil, other from Venezuela.

[TyroneGenade]

Hello Mr Hellner,

Rainer Sonnenberg is looking for samples of cameronense GBH 01/15 Makokou for his research. If you can help him out please email me so I can give you his email address.

Regards

[Steffen Hellner]

Stormhawk,

the flagellatus and flavicaudatus I collected in 1992 and 1995 resp. and mentioned to Wilson Costa that I was convinced they are separate species. Both seem to have become very rare if not vanished in the hobby. Though they are handsome fish and very easy to breed. The flavicaudatus is a bit plain colored and not really spectacular.

If you ever want to try the Pituna, I have plenty of eggs from them. Very small eggs, small fry, but oodles of them.

The fish is a Gnatholebias zonatus. Thsi fish likes it hot, hot, hot. As the hoignei does. They are surface orientated fish which like flies and crickets for food but will willingly take every offered food from live food to flakes. Sadly not very popular in the hobby. They are not closely related to Simpsonichthys.

The Moema quiii is a humongous beauty and not aggressive too much to its congeners. Other fishes beware! Problem raising them is the cannibalism. They need to have food day round.

zezinho,

if you can obtain eggs of S. hellneri I will appreciate that. Now it is getting cold, maybe better next year. If you guys in SG or HK want any eggs of the species I have, we will arrange something for next spring so I can send stuff in one parcel to you. Or two maybe.

Mr. Genade,

I would prefer Tyron if you agree,

Rainer already has samples from me of a new species of Aphyosemion. Of course he can get some fish of the mentioned cameronense. I have them as a pure strain from wild fish, no wild fish preserved. Wanted to contact Rainer long but didn´t find time though. Now, he should have my email address still. I have his but don´t know if it has changed. Long time nothing heard from him.

Best regards,

Steffen

[stormhawk]

Steffen, next spring sounds good. I hope to get my Plesiolebias going by then. Another tiny species with super tiny eggs and fry.

Hopefully I don't have to pull my hair out before I get them going.

[nonamethefish]

Hello Steffen.

I don't know your name but I was pretty sure Simp. hellneri was named after someone so you must be the person behind that name

I don't have much to comment on most of the convo besides that it is great information but I do have a question on nigripinnis.

I noticed you mentioned 4 weeks incubation...what temp/location would that be for? I received a bag of 'Villa Soriano' and it was marked for 3 months incubation. Their aren't any visible eggs(at least none that aren't peat covered) so I can't really tell what is going on with it.

Funny you are into caudates too. I keep 2 species and plan on raising some more eggs sometime soon. They do well right alongside the killies and require a lot of similar stuff.

[stormhawk]

I've only had the firebelly newts, Cynops orientalis, in my tanks before. Good pets but I couldn't keep them going. They died when I was out for a trip.

We can't keep amphibians or reptiles here in general due to some laws in place. But I would love to dream that I owned a few Dendrobates frogs, more commonly known as the Poison Arrow or Poison Dart Frogs.

Back to the topic of SAAs,

Steffen, is Simpsonichthys similis still present in Europe? Last I recall was that people had big problems with this species, especially in terms of skewed sex ratio amongst the juveniles.

And if you could, do you still have the collection data for the BHS 95 collection trip?

[whuntley]

Hey Steffen!

I have nothing to contribute, but just wanted to say HI and welcome to this forum.

It's good to see you contributing here.

Wright

[keehoe]

Wow, very informative post by Steffen Hellner. So much that i find it a bit hard to remember all at one go.

Hope Steffen will visit us more often and thats what some of us (newbie) always look forward to, to read more of your post.

To avoid getting laught at, i shall keep quiet and taking note especially when all the top killi keeper exchanging idea and information here.

KeeHoe (The lucky newbie)

[Steffen Hellner]

Hello,

whenever eggs of S. hellneri will be avilable will be fine for me.

As for the incubation of eggs e.g. nigripinnis. I have developed a mthode based on observations in the natural habitats, and with this I can get the eggs to develop within the natural period. In aquarium they are usually overstored in many cases. To point it out: When water evaporates it produces coldness. Thus when the waters in nature dry up they stay coll for a very long time even when the water level is decreasing. In Simpsonichthys biotopes in 99% the water is turbid by clay and from this blocks the sunrays out which helps keeping the water cool. Only short before completely drying up you still find all species in the pond, if predators (Cynolebias) are present you will find more of them than of the Simpsonichthys (resp. Megalebias and Austrolebias in the south). When the water is gone completely, the sun heats up the ground very quickly and the eggs as well. The natural dry season is usually not longer than 4-8 weeks everywhere in South America. Keep in mind that the beginning of the dry season does not mean the ponds are gone instantly, they will last for another 1-2 months, often longer as many of them are rather deep. So the eggs in the ground are heated up quickly while the ground is drying up. Before this, the ground is kept cold by the evaporation. In aquarium manitenance, I spwan the SAA at moderate temps, then take out the peat container, put it on the floor at about 18 °C for some days or a week, then wrap it in paper and dry and heat it up on the top of a lighted tank. The temperature jump from 18 to 30 or even 35 °C and the peat getting dryer are the triggers for the start of the dry season and incubation. By this I regularly had hatches as following:

Gnatholebias (all): 19 days to 28 days
Simpsonichthys (most, except zonatus, boitonei): 4-6 weeks
Austrolebias nigripinnis: 2-4 weeks
Moema (all): 2 months
Cynolebias: 2-4 months
Neofundulus paraguayensis: 4 weeks
Pterolebias longipinnis, wischmanni: 2 months
Aphyolebias peruensis, rubrocaudatus: 5 months.

If incubations are mentioned like 9-15 months this is obviously utter nonsense as this would lead to an immediate extinction in nature. Of course there can be eggs in diapause for a longer time but I highly doubt this reports of 3 years for A. nigripinnis and others. I tried this with several well spawned bags from which I usually hatched hundreds and after 15 months there was hardly any fry, after 18 months none anymore! The Gnatholebias are said to be difficult. Rubbish! I fed the fry by the hundreds, no joke, as they are as prolific as any other annual, but if these fish from the Llanos (extremely hot dry season) are incubated at room temperature the eggs will dye off rather than develop. I had week spawns from 5 pairs with 400+ fry over months. Handed them out, fed the overhead and told how it will work. Nobody followed my advice, now these fish are gone or are only reintroduced once again and again instead of working them as their nature requires. Guess why S. fulminantis is so widespread in the hobby? It is a cold fish, I collected it at 7.00 hrs. in the morning in water of 17 °C at the surface. The pond is about 150 cm deep! So at the bottom there it has only 15 °C or less. Your feet will feel very cold there.;-) And it is from acid waters. Perfect conditions for a small Aphyosemion. The pond hardly ever dries up, you will find all sizes of fulminantis and C. leptocephalus. And oodles of fulminantis. Incubation for fulminantis: 2-4 weeks - maximum.

BTW it is similar for Nothobranchius. A friend of mine is an expert in Noths and breeds them by the thousands for the trade. He incubates rachovii within 4 weeks and has tons of them in the same way as I do with SAA. In the same way I hatch my Fp. kunzi after 4 weeks in F6 already and with way better success than before when I kept them at "Gaboon temps". Annuals are very similar everywhere. Except the Aphyolebias which don´t respond to my technique and need 5 months whatever you do.

As for the S. similis, they are as easy and prolific as any other Simpsonichthys, they are very closely related to S. stellatus. But there were heavy disturbs by the two other undescribed species from the Rio Urucuia which may have caused unintentional crossings. Or not, I don´t know for sure. Or the species was just replaced by one of the many new introductions. Well, I cannot imagine to let a fish like similis (deep smaragd green males) go for a perpendicularis, auratus or rosaceus. Nice fish but not at all colorful or spectacular. Whatever, I will take the similis as soon as I come across it and breed it again.

Wright, what about Bettas? Still engaged?

Best,

Steffen

[stormhawk]

Steffen, I am told that Costa believes the population of Simpsonichthys from São Romão (known as sp. "Urucuia" in the hobby) belongs to stellatus. Dalton Nielsen collected this population close to where similis was found. However it is in the uniqueness of the pattern in the tails of males for that population that sets them aside from stellatus as a whole.



If there are two undescribed species that exist in Urucuia along with Simp. similis, I believe they should have been described by now, or probably in the process of being described.

Of all of the new introductions to the hobby, I believe Simp. carlettoi is the most beautiful. Unfortunately the similis seems to have disappeared from the hobby.

As for the part on Simp. fulminantis, maybe that is why we tend to see them die off very soon. Locally the temperatures in Singapore might not be very conducive for their long-term well-being. Nonetheless it is a beautiful species.



Your comments on the shorter incubation periods have got me thinking. We cannot achieve 18 degC in our normal conditions here in SG, but I suppose its worth a try by placing a bag of freshly collected eggs in the fridge's vegetable compartment for about a week and then warming it up on a lighting compartment.

But for us here, after we collect the eggs, we usually dry the peat quickly and in our local conditions, the peat will dry out very quickly. I'm not sure how your method can be adapted to a tropical climate like ours but I know for sure that constanciae hatches out after 6 weeks and that the rest of the Simpsonichthys that I've had, tend to hatch out after 8 weeks.

I have a bag of Simp. reticulatus eggs that were from a collection done on the 4th of July this year. Only today did I see eyed-up eggs and I promptly wetted them. The wetting date given on the bag was 20th Oct and to my surprise, today was indeed 20th Oct. Two of the fry are clearly dead and the rest do not seem willing to hatch out.

[Scott_sg]

Anyone care to buy some PCR and electrophoresis gear? Haha I think there will be some big surprises when someone actually gets around to looking at the genetics of the this genus - and many others.

Unfortunately there seems to be a monopoly on Simpsonichthys sp. at present, and that seems limited to morphological studies, so I think that in future there will be more revisions in future. Just try finding information about the ecology or physiology of these fish and it is pretty much zero, at best anecdotal.

And to whine again... that is why it is important to keep strains and locations as pure as possible. There is so much that is still unknown, and once the data is gone - thats it.

Ok back to work for me.

Scott.

[Steffen Hellner]

Stormhawk,

the type locality of S. similis is just about 1 km off a location where we found stellatus in 1995. The similis are distinct by the green coloration of males and the lateral spot in males which stellatus doesn´t have. The two morphs from the Urucuia are somewhat distinct from typical similis as we found it at Urucuia in several locations, and Sao Francisco (type locality). One form has black stripes in the tail fin, the other as shown on the foto here has broken bars in the tail fin. Typically stellatus has only stars in the tail fin - that´s where the name comes from, the star spangled. So if Costa thinks them to be similis, ok. If he will come to another oppinion one day he will follow that as he did in the past. He has my highest respect as there is no other scientist working on killis with a higher proficiency, deeper knowledge and the mind to even admit errors and correct them (e.g. Rivulus pinima complex or Leptolebias fluminensis). Of course he is a "splitter" which is nothing bad at all. He is working cladisticly and has characters of evidence for his theories and diagnosis.
Without him and many contributors from Brazil who collect killis we would not know ten percent about SAA as what we do today. And there are so many more new species being discovered that I doubt Costa will ever have a day of rest in his work on the taxonomy of Rivulids. Anyway, the similis lives just inbetween the stellatus and there is only the one location known until today. if I don´t miss an information about another location. I am sure there are more locations in the wild but we still have to find them. many areas in Minas Gerais are very remote and cannot be travelled by car, only by horse.

Is it that hot in SG? So the idea with the fridge could work if it is not getting much colder than 18 °C. For fulminantis it could get even down to 16 °C without problem, maybe less, I never tried though.

Steffen

[timebomb]

Steffen,

I put a thermometer on top of my lights just now and after about 10 minutes, the reading was 35 degrees C. I checked the vegetable compartment of my fridge and the thermometer registered 10 degrees C. I don't know if that's too cold for the eggs. Normal room temperature in Singapore is about 29 to 31 degrees C on most days. With air-conditioning, room temperature falls to about 25 C but very few of us can afford to let the air-con run 24 hours non-stop.

It so happens I collected 2 bags of Austrolebias nigripinnis eggs last night. I left the peat to dry between several sheets of newspapers for several hours before bagging them. With our usual method of incubation, the eggs won't be fully developed until 8 to 9 weeks later. I want to try the method you described. Do you think it would be a good idea to leave a bag of eggs in the vegetable compartment for a few days?

Loh K L

[stormhawk]

Scott,

Woah that's some major gear you're talking about there. Let's leave the genetic stuff to the PhDs and MScs.
I'll stick to having the fish.

Steffen,

The fish that I pictured was assigned to stellatus, if I remember correctly from the discussions on the SAA mailing list. With regards to similis, yes it has the lateral spot that stellatus lacks. I have a copy of the original description in PDF format but the quality is not very good. The image of the male on the 1st page is a little fuzzy.

You have a point about the remoteness of certain areas and I believe there are many more SAAs to be found out there. Sadly we don't see many of these in the hobby, for example, the smaller species like cholopteryx and parallelus, both very wonderful little fish but inhabiting remote regions, with one living in a protected park.

Our usual temperatures here hover around 24 degC (minimum) and 29 to 30 degC (maximum). I don't know how this temperature range will affect the incubation of eggs but many coolwater Aphyosemion are unable to be kept in our climate.

[Scott_sg]

Hi Steffan, Jianyang and everyone else contributing,

I should clarify my last post, I definitely have to agree that Costa has done a brilliant job, and definitely splitting was the right thing to do. My only concern is that for any field of science to be successful you need more than one man (or woman). And for the last 20 years or so it has been essentially one man doing it all for Brazil. I have like everyone else heard the good and bad. The freeze on exports of live material from Brazil being one of them.

My point in general being that one persons opinion is always going to be bad science by default.

Regarding the genetic side of things definitely it will shed more light on the systematics, so i would expect that with time there will be some shocks and surprises, that is not being disrespectful of anyone, just the way things progress with better information.

So now I leave myself at everyones mercy for stating the obvious. Haha

Oh yeah and Singapore is hot, hot, hot.. weather report for today 32C with afternoon storms, weather report for tomorrow 32C with afternoon storms, it never changes.. Singapore must have the most boring weather reports in the world!

And if anyone has information on endemic or commensal fish parasites of the patanal or chaco, please let me know where to look.

Have a nice day everyone. It is just my 2.618 cents worth..

Scott