SAA Discussions

[stormhawk]

Hi Scott, I don't have anything on fish parasites from the Chaco region but I do have articles on the rivulids native to that region. If you want a copy, let me know.

Within Brazil itself there are a rising number of lay researchers supporting and augmenting the work of Costa, amongst them, people like Dalton Nielsen, Andre Carletto and Rogerio Suzart. All 3 have had a Simpsonichthys species named after them and it is good that Costa recognises their contributions.

Getting stuff from Brazil hasn't been easy actually. Occasionally even peat "samples" containing eggs are seized by Brazilian Customs, on suspicion that they are drugs.

[Scott_sg]

Jianyang,
Point taken about getting to technical and enjoying the fish...

But still like everyone I am very interested in the fish we keep and how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together. I think it goes with keeping Killifish, part art part science.

As an experiment I have put a couple of bags of eggs under a lamp covered with some think card to keep it dark but get a bit of warmth there, temp is about 32 measured with my trusty thermometer. The eggs are new so i am curious to see if it has any effect - hopefully not killing them But they are definitely clear and healthy and have been kept as cool as is reasonable here. So will see how it goes.

Also in my magnificus tank i did an experiment, they are still very young but coloured up. I put 4 tubs with peat in the tank, 2 rectangular 2 round - the typical take away style ones bought new. Each has a either coco peat or aged normal peat (very fine and soft) my first observations i can definitely say that they prefer the larger rectangular containers but they dont like the coca peat at all preferring to play around in the small round container with the soft peat. Very early days yet, but Steffan got me thinking about it and definitely my fish seem to prefer the soft stuff they can almost swim in. I think the coca peat is too coarse. I dont know since everyone has different opinions.

Ok I really better do some work. And I am really going to scold Selena for introducing me to Killies.com, it is addictive, always interesting and lots of great information from great people. Just hope i am not too opinionated at times. So sorrry for any toes i stand on

Scott.

[stormhawk]

Scott, you're just fine. Not too opinionated but hey, everyone's got a right to air his thoughts, as long as its done in a civil manner.

By the way, how's your delucai doing? Hopefully you got the eggs you bidded for. It needs to be kept by more than one hobbyist here since its a pretty uncommon species in the hobby.

Its not Selena's fault that you got introduced to our community but since you're living in SG, it's only right that you become part of us. We need all the new members we can get and having an enthusiastic fella like yourself, its a good thing.

[Split off some posts from the boitonei-zonatus discussion into this thread since we were veering off-topic into other species]

[stormhawk]

Unfortunately there seems to be a monopoly on Simpsonichthys sp. at present, and that seems limited to morphological studies, so I think that in future there will be more revisions in future. Just try finding information about the ecology or physiology of these fish and it is pretty much zero, at best anecdotal.

A monopoly sounds fine with me since Costa is a competent researcher, and so is his wife and son.

I think he named one Aphyolebias (Aphyolebias claudiae) after his wife, Claudia C.P. Bove and a Simpsonichthys (Simpsonichthys brunoi) after his son Bruno.

There's some articles that I have regarding the physiology and ecology of the rivulids. If you want them, let me know. I'll search through my collection of PDFs and will pass them on to you.

[Steffen Hellner]

Hi all,

please name me Steffen and not Steffan, thanks.;-) As for the fish we should always use the correct spelling. Haha.

About monopoly, I am convinced this is not the intension of Wilson Costa. he is a kind of "untouchable" already simply by his extensive and outstanding work. Remember all the nonsense that was spread in contradiction to his work, e.g. from american "researchers" about the genus taxonomy in Pterolebias, Trigonectes, and Moema. I can well understand Costa and other brazilian citizens to keep their country closed for foreign collectors. Sure, I loved collecting there and had legal export papers for my exported killis. ButI learned and accepted that the fish species are in the property of the brazilian nation and the right for working on them lays in their hands predominantly. So I handed new material to Costa which led to a good cooperation. And keep in mind how many of the new species are outside Brazil already. This is a contribution of the brazilian enthusiasts for which we have to show our respect in not collecting in Brazil. Despite the fact that the punishment is harsh when caught in the act.

Regarding other additional scientists in the field of SA killis. Who could it be? I am convinced that Costa will support young talented biologists in Brazil and encourage them to join his field. There are many brazilian biologists in the fields of catfish and characins already.

For european and american researchers, there is enough room in Africa, this continent actually is completely forgotten as it looks to me.

Back to work now.

Steffen

[Scott_sg]

Oops My fault with the spelling. Sorry.

I generally agree with what you say Steffen There are plenty of places for people to make new discoveries and contributions. But I don't like the idea of saying that people should be limited to studying with what is in their own country, in that case i would have to stick with Kangaroos and Rainbow fish and no one else is allowed..

My point is really nothing about one person, but simply that if you have a field dominated by one person then it cannot be good. Most of the great scientists have been equally known for their mistakes. I really don't know enough about the details of who is doing what in Brazil to comment on any one particular person, but i do notice that yes the same name comes up on every paper, and more importantly the speed at which the fish are described and named is very fast. I doubt there are any other areas of biology where species are identified so quickly.

In most areas of biology I know it is generally a number of years before a species is formally described, and admittedly not being a Killifish expert, but with a very good background in biology I am just shocked at the speed with which the South Americans can get the papers out.

S. Carlettoi was from my understanding only discovered in 2004 and yet it is already named, bagged and tagged. I might be wrong on the details but even if it was 2003 that is still very fast in the world of biology. One only has to look at all the L numbers for the catfish to see how long these things normally take. I remember a friend and her colleagues arguing for months about spicule shapes in a sponge that was discovered on the Great Barrier Reef, and that was before they even got onto other bits of it.

In Australia even essentially new areas such as the Desert fish or the rainbow fish it still takes years to formally describe a species and they change yearly as new people make discoveries and contributions. Incidentally a lot of the people doing the work there are from Europe and North America, simply because there is a small population there in a big country. In Brazil of course the problem is poverty and hence education, even with a large population. If Australia was to say that Australian animals should be reserved for Australian researchers, firstly a lot of animals would simply never be studied and secondly what research was done would be sub standard simply because experts in any field will be distributed around the world. Any scientist will say that the key to good science is collaboration.

Africa I definitely have to agree it is almost untouched when it comes to the killifish, but of course i think to collect there or do any field research there is a lot more than crocodiles and malaria to worry about.

I have spent the last couple of months essentially looking for a Phd topic, and was hoping to find something related to Killifish since they are very special fish in many ways. But in doing so I have been surprised at many aspects of the science side of things. Perhaps one day a thesis on Nothobranchius sp. and Elephants

Ok i have probably irritated everyone enough for now.
Time for dinner,

Scott.

[Scott_sg]

Hi Jianyang,

I forgot to mention I don't have the S. delucai I never heard back from Au, so if you are reading this let me know But there is no hurry.

But i can tell you when I checked a few minutes ago I saw a few S.suzarti in a hatching tray very very early yet but I hope they will be ok. I only saw two just hatching so I will check later. Thanks to Eric up in Sweden! (Still incredible that they can just be mailed about - I don't think I will ever stop being surprised by that.)

I also have a couple of trays with N. Kafuensis 'Kayuni' and N.pamqvistii so I am quite happy at the moment. They are two days old but looking good so far.

I think I will also be ending up with a lot of S. perpendicularis, the guy told me there were a hundred + eggs there and when i checked them it certainly looks like it, more like a bag of eggs with some peat. So if that goes well I should have a lot of S. perpendicularis for anyone interested. But they certainly look good and are starting to darken nicely, so maybe in a few weeks I will have some luck.

The only breeding age fish I have at the moment are the S. magnificus and the N.Guetheri 'Zanzibar' - But still the males look so nice!

I have a lot of eggs sitting around though about 5 or 6 more Simpsonichthys species and about a dozen Nothos with a Rachovia and a couple Leptolebias.

I would be quite happy to help update your SG census, but am reluctant to claim anything until I get adults producing eggs. Since there is always so much that can go wrong.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped me along the way.

Scott.

[CM Media]

I forgot to mention I don't have the S. delucai I never heard back from Au, so if you are reading this let me know But there is no hurry.

Hi Scott,

In fact I've written to you twice but never get any response from you. I've mentioned to one of the member here and she suppose to linkup the communication path....

Anyway, if you're still keen on the Simp. delucai do correspond with me offline.

[CM Media]

Hello Steffen,

A very warm welcome and I've started of killifish with my first book written by you.

[Steffen Hellner]

Scott,

I subscribe that scientific competition is well worth having it. But as nobody of the european experts had even the slightest interest in SA, there had to come a Wilson Costa to start the process which we all new has led to an incredible number of discoveries, descriptions, reviews and knowledge. While Radda, Wildekamp and others travelled Africa, as did many collectors without any approach to science, nobody cared for SA. I went to Brazil in 1988 and many people asked me why and what it could be to bring home. After it they were calmer. After my trip in 1992 the hunt started. I still remember the hysteria about L. aureoguttatus, Moema piriana, R. luelingi etc. After 1995 it went even worth with fulminantis, stellatus, hellneri, similis. Now there is hardly anybody left in Europe who cares for SAA. Always the same.

So Costa and his collaborators Nielson, Tanizaki, Lacerda, Campello and all the others are the ones who pushed it all. And I see no expert in Europe who could join that team.

Regarding Australia: isn´t that the country/continent where they kill thousands of cacadoos (Pink, Whitecrest, Yellowcrest etc.) every year rather than give them free for the pet trade to weaken the request for Aras and Amazone Parrots? Isn´t Australia where you are not allowed to take any plant or animal or export or import it even for mere private purposes? Who can work on any australian species if not as an international expert in a certain field? Brazil is nothing different, and so is Venezuela, Ecuador, French Guyane (except fish), Costa Rica, Mexico and others more. In mexico a scientist has led to the total extinction of a Cyprinodon by not handing it to experienced aquarists for breeding. In Brazil you can work if you cooperate with native scientists and the types have to be placed in Brazil. When S. hellneri was described I previously requested from Berkenkamp to deposite the type series in Brazil. He didn´t which I am still angry about as this has led to misunderstandings, I am just lucky this hasn´t caused any synonymy. You know about Moema ortegai, the junior synonym of M. quiii? This and other cases will lead to a more and more restrictive policy in exporting fish or animals in general from Brazil. We are digging our own grave! Excuse me, this is not to blame anybody, just to point out the situation and reasons.

Regarding the speed of new descriptions, this is not an absolute character of scientific quality. Costa knows the SA killifish extremely well and easy finds diagnostic characters. When I first collected S. hellneri I was instantly aware to have a new species. Same with the later S. flaggellatus. Isn´t S. magnificus unique? Or fulminantis? So, what to diagnose over years? Not neccessary, the evidence is strong. On the other hand, about the Cynopoecilus Costa has worked for years and then came to conclusions. On the other hand, there are slow workers in this field elsewhere who have a list of synonyms that extends the valid species. The main reason for the quick description of easy diagnosable species is that Costa is a professional biologist with a staff and all other taxonomists in killis (with very little exceptions in Cyprinodon, Aphanius, Orestias) are engaged hobbyists. E.g. my good friend Ruud Wildekamp is not a professional biologist. This doesn´t affect his expertise in Nothobranchius, Lampeyes and killifish in general. But he didn´t have that much time, the staff, and the ressources to work as intense and quickly as a Wilson Costa can. Despite of that Ruud has described about half of all new Nothobranchius within the past 20 years.

Anyway, anyhow, this forum is a good evidence that the killi network globally is working. If we keep up to regulations, and possibly tribute to science this will lead to a continuous cooperation on mutual interest and respect and will enable both sides to promote their part of the hobby better and better.

Steffen

[Steffen Hellner]

Au SL,

thanks for the compliment. It was and is my intention to share my experience, and possibly the errors;-), with others to help them starting into our hobby easier and with faster success. I had experienced hobbyists helping me along my first steps in a way I cannot express and I ever since want to give something back of it as I wouldn´t have achieved what I have without that basis prepared by these friends.

Steffen

[Scott_sg]

Hi,
Au, I will try emailing you again about the S.delucai so not a problem. We can sort it out easy enough.

Steffen, I really don't want you to think I am criticising Costa or any of the other guys out there in the field, not at all. In fact I grew up with most of these men as my hero's. Including guys like you who have been there and done that. I just think science is done better from a more international approach, and definitely I don't think that any science or in this case systematics is cast in stone. That was essentially one of my points that when more genetic evidence is collected we will see changes as better information is obtained.

I absolutely agree that before Costa there was essentially nothing at all, so it is amazing what he has done. I would just like to see more peer review and more people in the field... but we can always agree to disagree there

I definitely agree that the type specimens should be in the country of collection. It makes things much simpler for everyone. It is always a bit stupid for a researcher to have to go to Europe or North America to study the type specimen.

Regarding Australia, yes definitely they have probably the strongest laws in the world when it comes to plants and animals. But my reason for mentioning it was that they also have lots of foreign people working there, including lots of Scandinavians . You are right about some of them being twisted in logic though. Most of the laws are really about quarantine, that is why most diseases of agriculture and even human diseases such as Rabies do not exist there. So they are keen to keep it that way.

With wildlife it does become bizarre, essentially a farmer can shoot a number of species of parrots even kangaroos but export is zero, their reason for this is that the wildlife should not be a commodity but it works in reverse of course since by banning not only exports but also domestically (in Australia it is illegal to keep most wildlife), it just makes a strong black market. Many people have complained about this for years, Australia must be one of the few places in the world where trafficking wildlife is one of the most serious crimes you can commit. But still the research there is very much international.

I totally and absolutely and can not agree any stronger with your comments on people like Ruud Wildekamp, after being in and out of the academic world for years now, i know that a piece of paper does not mean much. My brother has no formal academic qualifications and is now apparently one of the world "experts" on spiders and venoms, so I have never held that view of academics only. If you ever plan to go to Cairns Australia, or any of you guys and girls on here let me know and i am sure he will take you to some very good spots and show you around - lots of Rainbow fish and other wildlife. But anyway I think formal qualifications are not needed to make excellent contributions to any field.

Anyway Steffen it has been great to have you here and I hope I have not put you off in anyway. Sorry if I am argumentative about some things, there is no harm intended. And I have definitely been paying attention to all your information. What you wrote on Simpsonichthys was fantastic! And really a big thanks for getting out there and getting some of these fish and all the contributions you have made. Also thank Mr Costa and Mr Wildekamp, it is a great hobby and amazing biology, so without all of you we would be much worse off.

Sorry for annoying everyone.

Scott.

[Steffen Hellner]

Scott,

you didn´t´annoy me at all nor anybody else, I think. We agree in most everything. I myself would have liked to be able to work more in the systematic field but my primary interest is breeding, and collecting. So I widely leave the taxonomy to others. And we have the same perspective on formal qualifications. I am convinced that Wilson Costa would be happy to have a person to exchange thoughts and thesis about the Rivulids. Sadly enough there is nobody from here to the horizon who could be that. Simply because the present work of Costa and the field of work is so wide that it would take years to come into it as he is.

Scott, it is not meant personally if I am somewhat intense in some concern, simply that there are problems ahead we could avoid if we cooperate instead of criticizing the present legal situation. There was a french aquarist collecting in Brazil recently, if he would have been caught he would surely face iron curtains! No plays anymore in Brazil. I again and again tell german people how they would behave if a foreigner would fly in and collect fish out of our ponds and rivers?

Quarantine is nice but exporting animals or not has nothing to do with this. You mentioned and I agree that this is not consequent what Australia is practising.Even worse is that here countries are close to behave the same. Italy already has prohibited any orm of captive maintenance of wildlife.

Australia is long on my list of countries to visit. I have a brother from the first marriage of my dad living in AUS and I would love to meet him again after these long years. So be prepared, one day I´ll come. My father-in-law has a friend living in downunder and he visited us twice the past two years. Another good reason to visit your incredible continent.

And rainbowfish are nice, I love the Pseudomugil and Iriatherina.

Steffen

[nonamethefish]

Hello,

whenever eggs of S. hellneri will be avilable will be fine for me.

As for the incubation of eggs e.g. nigripinnis. I have developed a mthode based on observations in the natural habitats, and with this I can get the eggs to develop within the natural period. In aquarium they are usually overstored in many cases. To point it out: When water evaporates it produces coldness. Thus when the waters in nature dry up they stay coll for a very long time even when the water level is decreasing. In Simpsonichthys biotopes in 99% the water is turbid by clay and from this blocks the sunrays out which helps keeping the water cool. Only short before completely drying up you still find all species in the pond, if predators (Cynolebias) are present you will find more of them than of the Simpsonichthys (resp. Megalebias and Austrolebias in the south). When the water is gone completely, the sun heats up the ground very quickly and the eggs as well. The natural dry season is usually not longer than 4-8 weeks everywhere in South America. Keep in mind that the beginning of the dry season does not mean the ponds are gone instantly, they will last for another 1-2 months, often longer as many of them are rather deep. So the eggs in the ground are heated up quickly while the ground is drying up. Before this, the ground is kept cold by the evaporation. In aquarium manitenance, I spwan the SAA at moderate temps, then take out the peat container, put it on the floor at about 18 °C for some days or a week, then wrap it in paper and dry and heat it up on the top of a lighted tank. The temperature jump from 18 to 30 or even 35 °C and the peat getting dryer are the triggers for the start of the dry season and incubation. By this I regularly had hatches as following:

Gnatholebias (all): 19 days to 28 days
Simpsonichthys (most, except zonatus, boitonei): 4-6 weeks
Austrolebias nigripinnis: 2-4 weeks
Moema (all): 2 months
Cynolebias: 2-4 months
Neofundulus paraguayensis: 4 weeks
Pterolebias longipinnis, wischmanni: 2 months
Aphyolebias peruensis, rubrocaudatus: 5 months.

If incubations are mentioned like 9-15 months this is obviously utter nonsense as this would lead to an immediate extinction in nature. Of course there can be eggs in diapause for a longer time but I highly doubt this reports of 3 years for A. nigripinnis and others. I tried this with several well spawned bags from which I usually hatched hundreds and after 15 months there was hardly any fry, after 18 months none anymore! The Gnatholebias are said to be difficult. Rubbish! I fed the fry by the hundreds, no joke, as they are as prolific as any other annual, but if these fish from the Llanos (extremely hot dry season) are incubated at room temperature the eggs will dye off rather than develop. I had week spawns from 5 pairs with 400+ fry over months. Handed them out, fed the overhead and told how it will work. Nobody followed my advice, now these fish are gone or are only reintroduced once again and again instead of working them as their nature requires. Guess why S. fulminantis is so widespread in the hobby? It is a cold fish, I collected it at 7.00 hrs. in the morning in water of 17 °C at the surface. The pond is about 150 cm deep! So at the bottom there it has only 15 °C or less. Your feet will feel very cold there.;-) And it is from acid waters. Perfect conditions for a small Aphyosemion. The pond hardly ever dries up, you will find all sizes of fulminantis and C. leptocephalus. And oodles of fulminantis. Incubation for fulminantis: 2-4 weeks - maximum....
?

Best,

Steffen

I find this very interesting and needless to say it almost everything I've read upside down.

I think I may have done something similar accidentally to this bag of eggs. They were shipped about a month ago and then stored in a place where it was maybe 70 or a little less degrees and then maybe 2 weeks later were moved to a place with the temps at 75 degrees. I'm wondering if I should perhaps check the bag and maybe dunk a portion of the peat.

~Joseph