Giving up on Killies

[timebomb]

Hi, fellas,

Yes, you read that right. I'm thinking of giving up on Killies. But fret not, I'm thinking of giving up on only some species.

It's been something I've been contemplating for a while. In order that I don't get the species mixed up accidentally, the only way is not to keep more than one species from any genus. So I have decided that I don't want my Nothobranchius guentheri Zanzibar and Aphyosemion australe anymore.

For the former, I have about 10 males and 3 females. If you have something in exchange, I'll be glad to give the whole lot to you. As for the australes, they are aquarium strains so I'll give them to Azmi of Eco-Culture.

I think I want a Rivulus, preferably, Rivulus tenuis. I'm not particular about collection codes. Any place will be fine with me.

Loh K L

[RonWill]

Oh dammit Kwek Leong, it isn't very nice to give rude shocks like that! (not everybody's ticker can't take these surprises!)

It's been something I've been contemplating for a while. In order that I don't get the species mixed up accidentally, the only way is not to keep more than one species from any genus

When you're done, and have the tanks quarantined for strayed eggs, let me know. Chromaphyosemion sound good to you? I need to concentrate more on some species too and with pending career change in midlife, my options aren't really very broad.

We can always talk about this over another dinner and I can bring some precut styrene panels for tank covers (so you can't say that the killies jumped homes! )

BTW, I've seen those 24"L x 12"W x 18"H planted setups you have along the balcony, but others haven't. Post those pics up so we know the killies' new homes.

Personally, I feel you're moving in the right direction and have my support.

[whuntley]

You scared me too, Kwek Leong!

Avoiding accidents is a very good excuse, but I think we need to make major changes in our hobby from time to time, just to avoid "burnout."

My first go-around, I bred way too many common livebearers and chicklets, but managed to get hooked on killies. After dropping out to raise a son and start a business, I returned and did a few Tetras, Angels, Catfishes and such to get my skills re-honed, but got some wonderful help from the folks at BAKA to become a real killifish specialist.

When I had mastered breeding of all the easy ones, and most of the not-so-easy genera, it seemed like there was no where to go. I couldn't spend my life holding the hand of newbies on Usenet newsgroups, but then I discovered conservation and collecting through the Desert Springs Action Committee. My interest in our native killifish continues to this day.

Last Tuesday, I led our geriatric hiking group on a 2.6 mile trek through Fish Slough to BLM Spring, where Cyprinodon radiosus were recently reintroduced. We saw some new-of-the-year pupfish, but unfortunately too many Damnbusia. The weekend before we spent removing exotics in Ash Meadows, home of the Devil's Hole Pupfish and several other endangered killies and Dace. I brought home three baby red crayfish.

A brief tour in Bettas had me breeding most of the peaceful little red Bettas (as they are called in Holland) as well as the ornamental splendens I found the Anabantoids interesting as puddle fish, but didn't care for the grotesque side of the hobby and many who were involved there. Wayland Lee (famous killifish photographer) and I even salvaged one wild mouthbrooder species that had gone extinct in Europe. I did breed a few Gouramis, but never got a confirmed pair of Chocolates. [By the way, I did turn down a gift of some macrostoma at one point, which may make me unique. :-)]

My move to Modesto forced a huge contraction in my fish tanks (150 down to about 6) and a whole new learning experience about too-soft water. I even killed most of my Java moss before I learned to fix it. By then I had become active in planted tanks and the SFBAAPS.

A typical burnout time for intelligent hobbyists seems to be about 10 years. Discounting major life changes, like having a child or quitting smoking, no hobby survives much longer unless you find a new set of fascinations.

My current "Holy Grail" is to get a couple of missing fish back into the US hobby, much like our KCC rescued and spread the WAL GH2. My 2 main goals are: 1) the ANN Monrovia with the bright red-orange pectorals, and red ventrals, anal and caudal stripes, the dorsal is sky blue and black; and 2) the bright yellow ARN with unsymetrical caudal as seen in the Sapele strain. [See Radda and Purzl pp. 19 and 59] I do not have either, yet, but have a pretty good line on getting both. [David Ramsey just e-mailed me that he will send me some WAL GH2, so I will have them again, too. Nice fish, huh, Bill and Deborah?]

I also have plans to work with our local fisheries biologists on some Tui Chub and Pupfish efforts as permits can be obtained. Other plans include even breeding some of the smaller Rasboras, some day. Oh yes, I'm involved in the Madagascar-Seychelles special initiative and keep some Pachypanchax sakaramyi.

KL, the change is essential for staying young and keeping up interest. Of course quitting smoking may change things some, but it will let you do whatever it is longer.

Wright

PS. I'm actively looking for suggestions for a "Holy Grail" Chromaphyosemion. I had the spectacular big BIV Funge, but they were not as colorful as some of the SPP and BIT collections. Any ideas?

[Scott_sg]

Hi KL,

I would not worry too much about things, there is lots in the hobby to keep you interested like Wright says. And every different branch you learn something new. I remember being into marine at one stage and that was great experience, those guys are the engineers of the fish keeping world.

I have had lots of breaks over the years with studies and women and babies and more women and so on, but I have always found it hard to walk by a fish shop and not take a look. I think once it's there you cannot get rid of it.

With Killies I know you are worried about mixing them up and so on, but that is a problem for everyone, I just hatched some notho eggs from a very well known breeder (not french before people assume) and there was an egg in there that was definitely not from a notho looks more like Fp or something, so those type of things do happen.

And anyway just because you keep killies does not mean you are not allowed to keep other fish. Maybe a tank of something completely different would not hurt. When I get fed up I go and give some feeder fish to my C. Salvinii, now that is very different to my gardening hobby - oops i mean killie hobby. (Well it seems a lot more like gardening at times, just add water and watch them hatch, and lots of playing around with dirt.)

And anyway if you were to give up keeping Killies i would not get to read you and Ronnie bitching at each other like the odd couple

Scott.

[ruyle]

You scared me too, Kwek Leong!

He didn't scare me, I knew he was bluffing. If he was serious the angry
SG villagers would have him burned at the stake!

[David Ramsey just e-mailed me that he will send me some WAL GH2, so I will have them again, too. Nice fish, huh, Bill and Deborah?]

Wright, dunno about Deborah, I don't like them at all--I just like taking pictures of them! Actually, I like the fact that anytime I go by them
they are at the glass wanting another handout. Pretty fish with a great
personality! Since their tank is directly across from the Mundemba tank,
I was hoping their personality would rub off on them...no luck yet
Mundemba stay hidden most of the time, a problem with most Chromaphyos.. I should send you David's response on Chromaphyos
sometime!

I also have plans to work with our local fisheries biologists on some Tui Chub and Pupfish efforts as permits can be obtained. Other plans include even breeding some of the smaller Rasboras, some day. Oh yes, I'm involved in the Madagascar-Seychelles special initiative and keep some Pachypanchax sakaramyi.

I didn't know you had those fish! Hummm.....

Bill

[whuntley]

Bill,

The fishes of Madagascar are the ancestors of all killies (per dna genetic analysis) so we (serious breeders) all should keep at least one species as our nod to history (and species maintenance).

Actually, most of the Pachys are rather colorful and pretty. The big exception may be the playfairi which can be rather plain.

As Pangea broke apart, the killies of Madagascar represent as close as we have to the original ancestral stock. Their similarity to the Asian "Panchax" (Aplocheilus) is obvious, but even the more modern Rivulins have some common characteristics with them.

Do we need to get some to SG to be sure they are represented there?

Wright

[ruyle]

Do we need to get some to SG to be sure they are represented there?

Wright

I think that's an excellent idea! Perhaps in return you could get some of
Ronnie's Aphyosemion bit. Ekondo titi fry! That is, if he's still keeping
them. The SG gang will soon be 'broke-out" (Texas phrase) in breather bags This would of course be next spring...

Bill

[whuntley]

Why, pray tell?

My safest shipping season is between now and mid-late-Nov.

Rare to have a hard freeze, and the boxes don't cook in transit.

I need to contact FedEx and get qualified as a shipper with them. Their rules are on their web site.

Wright

[ruyle]

I have a FedEx account where I can go online and print out my own
shipping labels, track billing, etc. What exactly more does a "shipper" do?

Bill

[timebomb]

The fishes of Madagascar are the ancestors of all killies (per dna genetic analysis) so we (serious breeders) all should keep at least one species as our nod to history (and species maintenance)

That's a very interesting bit of information, Wright. It so happens I saw a documentary yesterday which claims that through dna profiling, they have discovered that our ancestor, (scientific Adam as opposed to biblical Adam) originates from Africa too, probably either from Ethopia or Tanzania. There are still many Homo sapiens in these 2 countries but as far as I know, there's hardly any Killies left in Madagascar. I met a guy who lives there, Olaf Pronk, who's a reptile breeder of world-renown and he said he couldn't find Killies in Madagascar.

Anyway, I know what you mean by "burnouts". I've gone through my fair share of them. My interest in the hobby has its valleys and peaks. To keep the fire burning, I've to go through massive overhauls occasionally. But the interest in fish and aquatic plants is always there. It's only that every now and then, one gets tired of growing the same old plants and keeping the same old fish.

I don't know if I can do what you're doing but in about 10 years time when I'm retired, I'll probably work on the hobby along the lines you've described. As it is, I feel proud to be associated with the scientific work regarding aquatic mosses. When I visited Oriental aquatic plant farm with the professor and a few other hobbyists, it was, in a way, a culmination of all my years in growing aquatic mosses. On that day, science, commerce and the hobby came together to work for a common cause. I'll always look back on that day with fondness.

For the moment though, I'm thinking of working on a project - an experiment to determine which are the best containers to raise Killifish fry. I'll need time and a bag of eggs which will hatch out a lot of fry. I hope to find out which factors (eg depth of water, shape of container, amount of mosses, number of snails etc) raises the highest number of fry.

I need to get my house in order first though It's the end of the year soon and I have to clear my annual leave. I should have some free time (several days in a row) on my hands soon. Let's see how it goes

And anyway if you were to give up keeping Killies i would not get to read you and Ronnie bitching at each other like the odd couple

Rest assured that won't happen, Scott, not as long as both of us is still around

It happens to the best of us, this thing about accidentally mixing up our Killies. In my case, it's even more likely as I lack the discipline to constantly impose quarantine measures with my tanks. My plants are haphazardly transferred from one tank to another. I also have an aversion to keeping my tanks covered. I prefer them open-top. If the fish jump, they jump but I believe in providing a stable environment where they are less likely to do so.

So, thanks but no thanks, Ronnie. Please keep the styrene panels for your own use. By the way, I'll be posting my tank pics in another thread.

Loh K L

[RonWill]

Wright,
I share your passion for the red pects Monrovia but unclear what you want in a Chromaphyosemion.

The SPL 'Tiko Green' (Orange pheno) is on my want list. It's a beauty but having lost the female and unable to propagate them further, I concentrated on the SPL 'Moliwe' and BIT 'Ekondo Titi'.

I've achieved my goal for the 'Moliwe'. Not quite there yet with 'Ekondo' and since it's my current favourite, I'll work towards having a tankful of them. So Bill, fret not. These fellas will be around for a good while.

Here's an incentive to pass for 'qualified shipper' and check also, how it is for package entering the USA too.
... like it?

PS. I'm actively looking for suggestions for a "Holy Grail" Chromaphyosemion. Any ideas?

The splendopleure C 89/15 'Muyuka Police Station' is nice too but I lost the only female in a reverse trio. No luck there, unless someone can zap me a few females. The SPL 'Mbonge' is another contender.

Do we need to get some to SG to be sure they are represented there?

I don't quite follow. Which species is that? I've learnt the hard way that if a fish is drabby like the Simpsonichthys constanciae, I'd literally have to beg to get it off my hands... nevermind if it's endangered or extinct in it's natural habitat.

Kwek Leong, I've been in and out of the pits often enough to recognise burnouts. To counter that, I breed. Pick out a species, not necessary a killie, and work on it. When I'm done, I usually feel the need to return to killies again.

Alternatively, go DIY a project. Be it a Henri, Hamburger or whatever-you-fancy. Try it sometime.

[whuntley]

I have a FedEx account where I can go online and print out my own
shipping labels, track billing, etc. What exactly more does a "shipper" do?

Bill

I looked for it last night, but failed to find it. FedEx has, somewhere, a shipping guide that tells what they require to ship fish or anything in water. I didn't find it, but it basically defines what they need to protect the next package down (reasonable). From what I remember, it is a sturdy cardboard box, enough absorbent material to soak up all water if the bags leak, and an outer 3 mil poly bag to catch it all. I have a couple of excellent examples from the rarefishguy in LA that I would re-use, initially -- very thick medical-type styros in fitted cardboard. I would replace his outer bag with the thick breather bags, tho. [I bought a bunch.]

I tried to sign up for an account, but they refused to accept my address, no matter what I put in. Frustrating!

I also tried to price a typical box to SG, but needed a local postal code for Ronnie or Kho to get that.

Go to www.fedex.com for more US information. For SG try http://www.fedex.com/sg/ Lots of help on international shipping.

Wright

[ruyle]

Wright, their system probably thinks you have a post office box #. It
probably keys on the word "Box" and throws it out. I didn't have a bit
of problem, of course mine is a street number address.

Bill

[ruyle]

Also have to say: the FedEx folks really like seeing you come in with the
label all printed out (which means you've already weighed and measured
the box)--makes life easy for them, and you're in and out of there in a
trice

Bill

gosh, Wright, we've hijacked yet another thread

[RonWill]

gosh, Wright, we've hijacked yet another thread

Glad you noticed As 'punishment', perhaps you can suggest ways of getting out of a burnout I'll need that as I'm running out of things to breed... no more kids, please

Kwek Leong,
I missed out responding about the Rivulus. Growing out a bunch of RIV cylindraceous 'Al Castro' juvenile, approx 1.5cm. How game are you for these?

[erikthur]

Sorry wrong thread...
I am not giving up yet...

[ruyle]

Here's an incentive to pass for 'qualified shipper' and check also, how it is for package entering the USA too.
... like it?

No, this is the one, over the SPL Mbonge. What do you think, Wright?
Ronnie that's a very nice photo...did you take it or Jian Yang, Heng Wah?
Whew, that's a nice fish!

Ronnie, why don't you try breeding Chocolate Gouramies? I'd suggest
scats (red or green make your pick) but it takes "jacks or better to open"
for those! We're talking a very large brackish tank, some rather fierce
filtration in terms of size and capacity, and breeder pairs over 12" in length
I've never heard of scats being bred in captivity. I'm sure some
have tried, and got their "point blunted."

I don't see any of you guys much interested in lampeyes, except Au.

Bill

[whuntley]

gosh, Wright, we've hijacked yet another thread

Glad you noticed As 'punishment', perhaps you can suggest ways of getting out of a burnout I'll need that as I'm running out of things to breed... no more kids, please

I started a couple of clubs, while neglecting my fish badly. Northern CA Killifish Club and California Betta Society. Quickly burned out on petty politics, tho. We folded NCKC back into BAKA when BAKA rejoined the AKA as an affiliate club (our only reason for forming NCKC). I dropped Bettas for reasons mentioned elsewhere.

Conservation activity, through the species maintenance route (KCC and ESP) or the native fish habitat work (DSAC) keep me from getting bored, too.

Starting over, with a list of "Holy Grail" fish I really would like to keep has been good for me, too. I want a really gaudy beginner fish, like the BIT Lagos, as well as the ARN and ANN. My STR Lambarene are my other pretty beginner fish for hooking new addicts. I have my desired Notho in eggs (Kilombero TAN 2-15).

As an engineer (retired) I can always get absorbed in some ridiculous DIY project. As soon as my shipment of "Round Tuits" arrives, I'll build a constant-flow water change system. Right now, I'm trying to get a CO2 system working, so I can really grow some plants. Now that my shoulder has healed, I can move the 55G (4') tank into my bedroom and get started on real gardening in my local pumice mix. Can't afford the lights I want, tho, yet.

I'd go back to Anabantoids in a flash if I could get some pairs of Chocolate Gouramis or albimarginatus.

Kwek Leong,
I missed out responding about the Rivulus. Growing out a bunch of RIV cylindraceous 'Al Castro' juvenile, approx 1.5cm. How game are you for these?

They are really very pretty, for a genus famous for ugly little vicious brown fish. I had them for a while, and will probably get some more one of these days.

I really miss Al Castro. His wife was with us at the recent Ash Meadows trip. I took a picture of her, her sister, and the three dogs we had taken on the trip (Teena, Blackberry and Zephyr), all on or around the memorial bench we had made for Al near Crystal Spring. She had taken her two Pomeranians, and her sister had 2 King Charles Spaniels. Those yappy little dogs had me convinced geese were flying in, at one point.

Wright

[timebomb]

Kwek Leong,
I missed out responding about the Rivulus. Growing out a bunch of RIV cylindraceous 'Al Castro' juvenile, approx 1.5cm. How game are you for these?

Thanks but no thanks, Ronnie. I think I'll pass. I had the R. cylindraceous for a while but didn't have much success with breeding them. I'm going to be a bit picky about the Killies I want to keep, as I'm going to have only one species of any genus.

Loh K L

[stormhawk]

Guys, its Riv. cylindraceus, not cylindraceous.

And this is one species that still defeats me. I have 6 individuals and they still refuse to spawn.