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Thread: for learners and knowledgable

  1. #1
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    for learners and knowledgable

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    Just came across this site that talks about Modern Aquascaping.
    A Seminar by George and Karla Booth.
    It consists of 3 parts of 80 slides which I find beneficial for planters.
    Some might even wants to print them... never knows..

    Part 1 - Introduction: Slides 1..11
    Part 2 - Planted Aquarium Basics: Slides 12..46
    Part 3 - Aquascaping and Plants: Slides 47..80

    URL: http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/Seminar/Intro.htm

    Enjoy.

  2. #2
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    actually theres quite a lot of stuff on george's webby... and he's one of the strongest proponents I know of for undergravel substrate heaters.

    Heres the URL for his webby
    Allen

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    Nice article, refreshing my thoughts.

    Yap Allen, his idea of laterite and heating coil... But without chiller...

    So, in the past few months, I have made a few points that I will do for my future tank. One of them was to have a undergravel setup which I would use it not for filteration (It would be without pump) but for facilitating me to feed liquid fert into the deepest most part of the substrate.

    I would use the UGF vertical tube as my entry point. I beleive there will be numerous benifits like:
    1) creating water movement in substrate by difusion
    2) if needed, flush the dead water there by pouring water
    3) add fert according to deficiency and not just depend on the base fert
    4) I would then place all of liquid fert there (except K2S04) and let the roots take all they want before releasing them to the water for the leafs. Overtime, it would act as a timed slow fert releaser. I could then dose it once a week
    5) reduced risk of algae
    6) I can double dosage to boost growth without worry

    Any comments?

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    I'm not sure I understand fully what you mean... so let me say what I think you mean....

    1) you're gonna get an UGF installed in your substrate.
    2) you're gonna use the exhaust valve of the UGF to introduce liquid ferts directly into the substrate
    3) so its working in the RUGF direction right?

    Did I get that right?

    If I did, then I must admit that its a novel idea... however I can see a few potential issues.

    1) you need to use those UGF which uses tubes under your substrate and not the kind which uses plates...
    2) its hard to ensure that your ferts will reach all areas of your substrate. This is because the water in your UGF is static... (you mentioned no powerhead right) you have to rely on the ferts to first diffuse homogeneously in the water in your UGF, then slowly be absorbed by your substrate
    3) even if (2) is not an issue, you will still have "dead zones" where your UGF does not reach
    Allen

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    1) you need to use those UGF which uses tubes under your substrate and not the kind which uses plates...
    2) its hard to ensure that your ferts will reach all areas of your substrate. This is because the water in your UGF is static... (you mentioned no powerhead right) you have to rely on the ferts to first diffuse homogeneously in the water in your UGF, then slowly be absorbed by your substrate
    3) even if (2) is not an issue, you will still have "dead zones" where your UGF does not reach

    Allen :

    i quite agree with you that this would be a novel method to fertilise the plants through the substrate however my reservations are :
    if you do not force your ferts trhough the hose they would remain stagnant at one spot
    secondly if you do use a power head or pump you will force the ferts through and also drive up the substrate and the remaining base ferts and this in turn will cause your tank to be cloudy and detritus will be floating round in you tank
    in theory that sounds like a very novel idea but i have my reservations that it will work [ dupla and the big guns would have jumped on that idea long time ago ]
    HOWEVER:
    the idea of using a trickle filter for a planted tank set up is another refreshing idea
    any one besides aquatechnic using a trickle for their planted tanks .. earger to hear from you !!!!!!!

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    I agree, however I think the ferts are unlikely to concentrate at one point... the more concentrated areas would slowly diffuse until the entire area of the UGF is homogeneous.... how long this would take is the question...

    as for using a pump, I definitely agree that thats bad... defeats the whole purpose of the idea.

    Hehehe please note that its not my idea... its FC's I was just paraphrasing what he wrote earlier.

    As for trickle filters, which part of it do you find refreshing? maybe you could elaborate?
    Allen

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    ----------------
    the idea of using a trickle filter for a planted tank set up is another refreshing idea
    any one besides aquatechnic using a trickle for their planted tanks .. earger to hear from you !!!!!!!
    ----------------
    hear hear... I am the only weirdo here who is doing everything "unconventional". I use a sump with a overflow system, not exactly a trickle filter (yet)... among other things. CO2 lost is minimum (I suppose) if I keep everything quiet...

    ck

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    originally when dupla introduced their system they only had the trickle filter both for fesh water and marine.
    some gurus came along and said that trickle filters were not suited for planted tanks cos the co2 loss from a trickle filter as compared to a canister filter was very high.
    i presume everyone follwed this theory : trickle filter = co2 loss & canister filter = co2 gain
    now that these guys have stuck to the 10 golden rules of kipper&horst and have achieved excellent results i am wondering if the theory of co2 loss is just a small price to pay cos [ now i read that amano is pumping air into his tanks at night ] and with a ph controller we can actually control the amount of co2 we release into our tanks
    may be a trickle filter is the answer for a planted tank ie if you want to have fine filtering and it would be easier to mantain than a canister filter ..
    over to you guys for your views

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    I'm not sure I follow you when you say "fine filtering" are you proposing that trickle filters are superior to canister filters? If so, in what way... or else I don't know what you mean by "fine filtering"

    As for amano injecting air into his tanks at night, do you know why he does this? I'm asking because I recently started doing so at night (about 3 days now)... its sort of an experiment for me, and I'll state my findings after more time has elapsed. or I won't state anything if my theory is junk [] however, it would be interesting to know whats his rationale.
    Allen

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    allen :
    when you use a trickle filter :
    you can change the filter mesh to very fine mesh or change the mesh whenever it gets clogged up
    you do not have to wait for 6 months or so to change the filter pads and the water returning to your aquarium remains clear
    whenever you change the filter pads, the filter media [usually bio balls ]is left untouched
    when you see that your sump is dirty you can suck up the dirt straight away thus again you do not bother your filter media again
    then again you can place your reactor into your sump and it saves you the trouble of getting it hooked up to another supply line
    when you want to add carbon : you just dump it into the sump
    the advantages are really unlimited not to mention using a dosing pump for daily dosing of nutrients etc
    however these are just my experiences with a trickle filter .. luckliy i did not dump my trickle filter ... still have it with me .

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    sorry for not answering the 2nd part of your query on amano
    my guess : plants take in co2 and release o2 by day and reverse this process by night thus by pumping air into his tanks at night , i guess amano wants to saturate his tanks with o2 so that when the lights come up during the day the water is so saturated with o2 that they start to bubble straight away [ my guess only ]

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    Cks...actually amano wrote in aquajournal vol. 35 that the injection of AIR into a planted tank is to aid in the respiration process of plants as well as to supply enough O2 to aquatic animals and bacteria. [] ..He also stated that CO2 injection is for fertilization and not for pH regulation.
    Plant Physiology by Taiz and Zeiger

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    Hi,

    "I agree, however I think the ferts are unlikely to concentrate at one point... the more
    concentrated areas would slowly diffuse until the entire area of the UGF is
    homogeneous.... how long this would take is the question... "

    “3) even if (2) is not an issue, you will still have "dead zones" where your UGF does not reach”

    -UGF is basically a hollow pocket and the idea is for me to spread the liquid fert evenly there before it rise up to the water.
    -yes, “RUGF” somewhat but only for liq fert.
    -due to the high disparity, the diffusion part should be very fast within the UGF compartment, within 3 hrs, I believe. If not, one can always top fresh water into it.
    -injecting fert there actually create more water movement through diffusion. Just to illustrate, I am injecting liq fert (PO4, NO3, etc) to the deepest points of the substrate every time I change water. My testers show that the fert seep out after 2-3 days. With UGF compartment, it would be quicker.

    "As for trickle filters, which part of it do you find refreshing?quot;
    -trickle is very efficient and if setup well, would make maintenance very easy.
    -trickle suffers no lost of flow rate irregardless of filter medium volume.
    -In all parts of my tank setup, I always blend in performance, practicality and form.
    -I am still a canister guy because it is a neat and compact solution, and with a skimmer, O2 should not post a problem to the good bact.
    -Trickle is too bulky and complicated and I have not find enough compelling reasons yet for me to switch to it.


    “I use a sump with a overflow system, not exactly a trickle filter (yet)”

    -I was thinking about that way when I used to have a small Ehiem 2224. My purpose was not to do trickle but using the sump to increase filter medium volume/mass. The advantages are:
    1) ease of maintenance like trickle filter (just need to wash the pad located there)
    2) increasing medium mass without loosing flow rate.

    -trickle filter will suffer CO2 lost and PH swing if it is not setup properly. Pay attention to the filter entry point, the (water) fall can be slowed down via angle tube and then should first contact the fine floss pad to cushion the impact.

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    ----------------
    The advantages are:
    1) ease of maintenance like trickle filter (just need to wash the pad located there)
    2) increasing medium mass without loosing flow rate.
    -trickle filter will suffer CO2 lost and PH swing if it is not setup properly. Pay attention to the filter entry point, the (water) fall can be slowed down via angle tube and then should first contact the fine floss pad to cushion the impact.
    ----------------
    The water flow in the biotower can be turbulent/trickle, but it must be contained/sealed. Such that the CO2 lost in the biotower will equilibrate with the air in there, until no CO2 lost.

    The main advantage of a sump and overflow, to me, is that water level remains unchanged for many many many days. Dun you just hate to top up water in the tank every few days?

    Regrading the UGF thingy, it will work to a certain extend, but do bare in mind that the flow across the gravel bed will not be even (due to the uneven packing of the substrate, plant roots etc)... so it is likely that there will be dead pockets... The main disadvantage is that you have to deal with the mass of roots that gets tangled in there. Still, it will work.

    ck

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    you can change the filter mesh to very fine mesh or change the mesh whenever it gets clogged up
    ---------------
    OK I can agree that trickle filters make maintenance easier with no disturbance to your bio media... but you can use fine filter wools even in canisters.

    ---------------
    sorry for not answering the 2nd part of your query on amano
    my guess : plants take in co2 and release o2 by day and reverse this process by night thus by pumping air into his tanks at night , i guess amano wants to saturate his tanks with o2 so that when the lights come up during the day the water is so saturated with o2 that they start to bubble straight away [ my guess only]
    ----------------
    Hmmm... I thought abt that, and it would help increase the O2 levels... but I doubt it would reach saturation. What Peter mentioned sounds more likely...
    Allen

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    On 1/24/2003 7:11:45 AM
    Regrading the UGF thingy, it will work to a certain extend, but do bare in mind that the flow across the gravel bed will not be even (due to the uneven packing of the substrate, plant roots etc)... so it is likely that there will be dead pockets... The main disadvantage is that you have to deal with the mass of roots that gets tangled in there. Still, it will work.
    ----------------
    I fully agree. I'm pretty sure it would work to bring the liquid ferts into the substrate, Just questioning how large the dead spots would be.

    As I mentioned earlier, UGF have 2 types... the traditional type was just a grating of sorts in which your gravel sits on top. The newer types are actually plastic tubes with holes which can be made to span the bottom of your tank. For your idea to work, I think you have firstly got to use the tube type UGF, and then you have to pay attention to how it is laid out. It is likely that the end of the UGF furthest away from your entry point for ferts would be the poorest fertilized area.
    Allen

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    i found the idea of someone bring up the idea of using trickle filters in a planted tank "refreshing" cos it has been ages since i heard of anyone using it after dupla conceived this filtering method.it actually died a natural death after a short while and suddenly it's being used agin ...
    there are pros and cons to using both types of filters ..and the choice is ultimately the hobbyist himself. some hobbyist have achieved fantastic reults with trickle filter whilst some have not been so successful. personally i had a trickle filter for my planted tank and the results were quite good however lately, I've switched to a canister filter and found the results also as impressive as the trickle filter
    between the two i would say that the trickle filter would have been a better choice for ease of maintenace etc etc however i've opted to use a canister cos the price of co2 top has spiralled sky high today . if not for the co2 loss, i would still be using my trickle filter today .

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    Good point on the tube type UGF, I saw it recently. I may layout in such a way that there will be 2 entry point at each ends. My idea is to have the UGF only on back half of the tank where the larger/hungrier plants are.

    Comments please? Your view will be valuable for my next tank (not so soon though, require government's approval).

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    FC,
    IMO if you have an ungravel heater you really do not have to go to such extremes to feed your plants.
    it would be better to use long lasting/slow release ferts [ like jobe sticks ]
    the under gravel heater would do this for you .

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    True... while using the UGf is quite a novel way, why not just use some good ferts and refresh your substrate every few weeks... it should work just as well... after all, your main purpose would be to try and trap your ferts in your substrate, and theres no easier way to do that than to use solid ferts.
    Allen

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