Nodular Disease

[timebomb]

Hi, folks,

For a while, I've been having this problem. Many of my Simpsonichthys fulminantis seems to be developing some sort of cysts on its body. Strangely, it happens only to the females. Mostly, the growth is around its head but with some of them, the cysts are on the body.

I checked my "fish health" manual and it says its nodular disease which is caused by various parasites. The experts aren't sure of the life cycles of such parasites but they believe each nodular disease is specific to one or a small number of fish species. That's what I've observed too. Other than the S. fulminantis, none of my other Killies have the same problem.

I took out an infected female and took some pictures:




It looks downright frightful, doesn't it?

I lifted these 2 pictures from my book:



The book says there is no reliable treatment for this type of disease. So I've been removing the infected ones and throwing them down the rubbish chute. I've also been dosing all my tanks with levamisole. I'm not sure if it helps but I'm at a loss as to what I should do.

What would you recommend?

Loh K L

[Scott_sg]

KL It looks and sounds like Glugea to me. I think they have had some big problems with it in the US in the past. I am only going on what I have read, so Wright or someone might give a better idea.

Here is a link from US fisheries.

http://www.state.me.us/ifw/fishing/f...vol2issue1.htm

I hope I am wrong

Scott.

[timebomb]

It does look like glugea

I'm doomed. I have so many tanks and they're so heavily planted I don't know how I'm going to disinfect all of them and start all over again

Loh K L

[whuntley]

KL,

Go search the archives of killietalk and look for the postings on this subject by Barry Cooper. Prof. Cooper teaches veterinary pathology, and has come up with a solid and simple procedure for ridding your fishroom of glugea.

One thing to understand is that it is carried right through the egg development in the peat, and can rapidly infect new hatchlings. Hence it can crop up when you least expect it. Quickly spooning out babies as they hatch, and transferring with minimal water to new containers seemed to prevent "next generation" infection for Robert Nhan. Seems difficult and tedious to me.

BTW, this is the first report I recall of it in any killy genus that wasn't a Notho. Probably has happened and I just was unaware of it.

Wright

[Al Baldwin]

If it is really Glugea the drug of choice is FLUBENDAZOLE 5% if you can obtain it. Dr Cooper recommends a lenghtly use of it to eradicate the problem. Standard treatment of 1/2 a gram of the 5% powder per 5 gallons or just less than 1/4 teaspoon per 5 gallons is recommended. A 3 month term is called for with extreme care to avoid spreading the problem.

[keehoe]

Last week, i did a check on my fry tanks. The most healthy tank has a layer of white things that waving at me. When i look closely...... HYDRA!!

One whole layer of white colour Hydra. But my exo fry (about 1cm size) don't seems to worry about the hydra and the water there was crystal clear. After i change tank/ water and continue normal feeding. It only take 3 days to make the water cloudy.

KL, may be hydra is a good things that you have there all the while.
Just maybe.........

[TyroneGenade]

Contact the state vet and see if you can send them live fish for examination (don't expect them back...). If it is Glugea then you will have to systematicly nuke each annual tank and treat the non-annual tanks with the flubendazole. You MUST put down every possibly infected fish. The flubendazole will not cure them, it will only kill the free parasites that seek out new fish to parasitize.

Non-annuals seem relatively uneffected while SAAs, Fp and Nothos suffer big time.

Eggs in peat can be rescued by removing the eggs and washing them in several changes of water before hatching.

VERY IMPORTANT: apply strick quarantine measures to each tank. If you have to use equipment between tanks then first sterilize them with bleach.

I have had Glugea in my setup before and beat it, but you have to be merciless... so first get a proper diagnosis!!! There are many pathogens that cause what you see that are not Glugea.

[timebomb]

Thanks for the feedback, fellas.

I searched through KillieTalk and found some of Dr Cooper's posts. They weren't of much help though. He doesn't think there's a cure and he managed to beat the parasite only because he moved house and left his tanks empty for months.

After reading his posts though, I took a close look at my other tank and was disheartened to find some of my Nothobranchius rachovii's showing the same disease. As with the Simp. fulminantis, only the females seem to be infected. Nowhere on Killietalk was it mentioned that the problem could be gender specific. I wonder if I stumble on to something or could it be the disease is less visible on the males.

It would be an impossible task to quarantine my tanks from one another. They are all heavily planted and lined up in a row next to each other. Often, my wife helps me to maintain the tanks and she will transfer plants from one tank to another. Even if I maintain the tanks myself and let no one else touch them, it would still be impossible to ensure nothing gets from one tank to another.

For the present moment, I'll just remove every infected fish I find. I will try dosing with flubendazole when I get my hands on some of this drug. I gave the last of mine away to a friend when he had Hydra in his tanks.

It's been hell. I've encountered all sorts of diseases (Velvet, Ich, Camallanus, you name it) in my tanks before but this one is going to be one mountain I can't climb.

Loh K L

[timebomb]

By the way, guys,

It just occurred to me that some of you may have received mosses from me recently. I can't remember all the folks I sent mosses to and which tank they were taken from but I'm quite sure the Spiky Moss I sent Wright a week or so ago came from a tank where there were Simp fulminantis infected with the disease.

I know it's probably too late but please take precautions.

Loh K L

[stormhawk]

Glugea is hard to eradicate. Spreads fast and kills fast. As mentioned previously within this thread by Al Baldwin, flubendazole is the drug of choice to combat this problem.

KL, perhaps it would be best to identify the cause/s of this disease in your tanks. Then maybe you can take preventive action early on any new hatchling fry produced from eggs laid by the infected parents.

[timebomb]

Jianyang,

We're not sure if it's Glugea yet although it looks to be so. I don't know how I can send the fish to a state vet like what Tyrone suggested. Is there such thing as a state vet in Singapore?

Anyway, from my observation, the disease does not spread as fast as what Jianyang implied. It also does not kill rapidly. In fact, it kills rather slowly, in that, infected fish does not seem to display symptoms like "poor appetite, listlessness etc".

As for the cause, it's hard to tell as the parasites could have came with peat or something else. I'm inclined to believe they came with Tubifex worms though.

Loh K L

[whuntley]

The cysts can last a long time (many months) in damp peat, but the free-swimming stage doesn't last long without a host. To my knowledge, there are no worms that host this disease.

Thanks for the warning about the spikey moss. I'll send to Dr. Charles Harrison in St. Louis and get some flubendazole. Fortunately, the moss is still in quarantine, so none of my fish are exposed (so far). Since I work for the county animal control service, I may be able to get some locally. I should have it, anyway, as we have a nasty tapeworm that is being spread our way by birds, that infects some of our native fish in the desert south of here.

I do not know if Charles can send it to SG by mail. You might contact him at [email protected] and see if he can. He is a long-time breeder and active member of the St. Louis killifish club and the AKA. He and I frequently disagree about husbandry issues, so you could do worse than to get him to join killies.com. He is a very wise PhD chemist. [Don't tell him I admitted that. ]

Wright

[RonWill]

...even if I maintain the tanks myself and let no one else touch them, it would still be impossible to ensure nothing gets from one tank to another

Kwek Leong,
The casual habit of plant transfer without quarantine is at best, a game of Russian roulette (don't really know when that chambered round is waiting for you).

Absolute discipline in disease management is not impossible but we often compromise. Separate nets, siphon hoses and quarantine (of plants and fishes) will reduce such occurence but a well-stock medical war-chest will help too.

Al already stated that Flubendazole is the treatment of choice and if that being so, have someone organize an order for it. Indicate the interest here but further correspondence on the issue to go off-forum (the walls have ears)

The treatment term is lenghty but if shrimps, snails and ostrapods are known carriers, then tearing down the tanks isn't an option. If you need help, let me know.

The boss of a local killie forum won't look good without any killifish in his tank but I've discussed this with others and we can replenish your tanks, once we have a clean bill of health.

No such thing as an unclimable mountain. Your choice, buddy.

[keehoe]

Yah, i agree with Ron.
I will contribute a pair of Ap. AUS Cape Esterias EBT 96/27
and remember about the ZII?

Enough temptation to bring you over the hill?

[timebomb]

Thanks, Ronnie and Kee Hoe. I know I can count on you all.

For the present moment, other than removing every infected fish I find, I don't intend to do anything else. I'll let the disease run its course and see how it goes later.

Loh K L

[whuntley]

Sorry KL, but that will never work if you truly have Glugea. It kills so slowly that annuals nearly always get to reproduce before they die, and it will stick around for generations if you don't go after it with an antihelmentic.

It isn't a tough-shelled critter, like the Mycobacteria, so a solution of 19:1 water/bleach to rinse nets and other equipment is about all you need to keep from spreading it. Most plants will tolerate a brief dunking in that solution, as will your fingers, and following it with a brief dunk in Epsom salt will do in any snail eggs, and hydra, etc. That's about all I'll do with your Spikey Moss, which is still in quarantine, anyway.

I had it in my tanks in Fremont, when I was feeding 150 containers! It never got a chance to spread, and I was rid of it in one generation, in but a single tank.

Anyone getting annual eggs should be on the lookout, and take prompt action, as it certainly can come in at any time.

BTW,. I have many too many nets, and always hang them to dry totally between uses. That, alone, is a pretty good way to keep from moving most pathogens around.

Wright

[RonWill]

...I don't intend to do anything else. I'll let the disease run its course and see how it goes later

The sooner you get it done and over with, the better you'll sleep. Help, you will get, but I see a tough road ahead if you let things be. Why prolong the agony?

Personally, I'd rather lose a gangrened toe than to severe a foot.

Wright and Al,
Besides antihelmentic and bleach treatment, what other options are there?

Anyone here ever bleach-soak an entire planted tank?

[whuntley]

Wright and Al,
Besides antihelmentic and bleach treatment, what other options are there?

Anyone here ever bleach-soak an entire planted tank?

Not many. Fine frilly or delicate plants can only be put in 19:1 bleach for about 30 seconds to a minute. Anubias usually can take it for several minutes. That's why I never try to do a whole planted tank. You can't fill and drain it, that fast.

Other protein-damaging chemicals, like formalin or potassium permanganate may be effective, but I have no personal experience with them on Glugea. As tanning (cross-linking) agents, as opposed to bleach which digests proteins, they are probably tolerated by plants a lot better.

Wright

[timebomb]

The problem is besides the fish, there are many plants in my tanks too. Mostly, they're the various aquarium mosses. With fish alone, it's already hard if I have to destroy all of them but if I have to bleach all my mosses, it would become an impossible task. I have a couple of moss walls and in order to bleach the mosses, I would have to tear down everything.

Moreover, all my tanks have substrates. Most have normal aquarium gravel while a few are of ADA aquasoil. If the parasite can hibernate in peat, chances are my substrates are also contaminated. So, in order that I de-contaminate my tanks, I have to either throw away all my substrates or disinfect it. Either way, it's going to be hard for me.

Please leave me alone for a while and let things be. To tell the truth, I'm a big disheartened but besides that, I'm also distracted. In recent weeks, I've been mulling about building another web site - one on "skepticism" /critical thinking". Aquarium fish and aquatic plants will always be something close to my heart but it's still just a hobby. The other topic however, is of much greater import. At least, I think it is.

You all know my stand on forming a killifish club. I'm against it. But I would be delighted to form a "skeptics' society" if I can find enough like-minded people. But so far, I've found only one and she isn't a member of this forum.

It will take time and a lot of hard work and it may never come to pass. But I hope, one day there will be a skeptics' society in Singapore. I'm not qualified to hold any official post but I'll be delighted just to be among the pioneers.

Loh K L

[Scott_sg]

I know this is the obvious, but logic would actually suggest that Glugea and probably everything else is already in everyones tanks.
The real question is why it tends to break out in some tanks and not others.
Even reading through the available data it seems to show more of what is unknown than what is known.

1) Flubendazole is an antihelminthic, I cant see how that will change a thing unless part of the life cycle is in worms etc or to irritate the bowels, but for any fungi it would be virtually useless.
2) If it is Glugea is not an issue, either way the pictures show pretty much a fungal problem. The white lumps are the fruiting bodies. Equivalent to mushrooms popping out of the ground. Essentially the fungus is invading the abdomen and living virtually unseen, under the right conditions it wants to reproduce hence the big white lumps.

So using a bit of logic there are simple answers.
1) Bleach and kill everything, but in reality the spores are pretty much around for who knows how long. And they travel well on the wind
2) Use some commonsense and prophylactic treatments to avoid the problems.

Now all diseases are around all the time, we simply have ways to deal with them unless something goes wrong. For a fish this is all the usual things, too hot too cold wrong water bad water bad handling etc. Even just simple things like stress from sex
In these cases the immune system is weakened and then the infection can take hold.
The other situation can occur when the disease agent is present in such numbers that even healthy individuals are overwhelmed.
Think of it this way if you are healthy and have 100 lymphocytes to fight disease cells then you can easily fight off 100 invaders, but what about 1000 or 10000 etc. In this case you lose the battle. The other situation is where your body for whatever reason cannot make enough protecting cells so even a small number of invaders can overwhelm.
It is a rough analogy but that is the basic principle of immunology.
So back to the fish.
For the fish the problem has been that once they turn into the marshmallow pictures, then the spores are everywhere, so to an extent they will be swimming in a soup of the spores so it becomes even harder for them not to become infected.

So here is the logical answer.
Copper sulfate
This is still one of the standard fungicides after 150 years. It is generally fine with plants, look in any nursery for what they use to treat fungus and rust problems.
It can kill animals though depending, but fish are generally ok with it, but it will kill any shrimps and similar. Even better, in higher concentrations in fish it irritates the bowel and causes diarrhea. Which is essentially what you would want to happen.

So I would simply use a weak concentration in all your tanks, and a strong concentration set up in a small quarantine tank. Use the strong concentration to put your fish in for a few days and keep adding the Copper sulfate in low doses to all of your tanks for the next 6 months or so.

Kind of easy, oh and just wash any plants in a copper sulphate solution also. Or let them sit in it more likely Especially sending or receiving.

And it is never really about curing things, pharmacology is really about getting the numbers of the "enemy" down to a level that the organism, fish in this case can fight it off themselves.

That is the same principle of hygiene, you can never remove disease causing agents, simply keep them in check.

My sqrt(2) cents worth.

PS. KL a skeptics society would be great, but I am a bit skeptical of it but put me down on the list.

PSS Thanks Prof Shipton for teaching me a lot of stuff I though was useless and boring at the time. Complete head case but a fungi professional.

PSSS. Oh and there are lots of fungicides but Copper Sulfate is cheap clean easy to get and well known.

Ok I will shutup now.