Another moss found in pond, ID ?

[imported_kenny]

Hi all,

I found a moss in a pond a couple weeks ago here in Manitoba. It was stuck onto the the side of a wooden bridge floating on the pond.

As the moss was already submerged in the water, I believe it was in the submersed form when I found it. However, in my tank, it changed size, and the leaves were staggered. It adapted rather quickly to my tank, only on the 3rd day new shoots were growing. After 2 weeks, it has already grown more than 1.5cm.

I kind of think the original leaves looked like Fontinalis while the new shoots looked like stringy moss or nano moss ??

Here's a photo, the unknown moss on top, and taiwan moss at the bottom for comparison. Any idea ? (Click on picture to enlarge)



Thanks ,
Kenny

[timebomb]

Kenny,

I think what you found is probably a Leptodictyum riparium, commonly known as Stringy Moss. It's always hard to identify moss from pictures but my opinion is based on 3 observations. One, the leaves of the moss (those lower down the stem) are spread out at almost right-angles to the stem. The professor said this is one of the features of L. riparium. Two, I can faintly see a mid-costa in the leaves. Three, higher up the stem where the new growth is, the leaves are much smaller. This is an indication of submersed growth and its where the moss looks more like the Stringy Moss we are familiar with.

But then again, I could be entirely wrong. Only way to find out is to bring the moss to the professor but I have to say he's getting tired of examining the same old mosses over and over again.

I've been thinking of a solution to this problem - that quite often, the mosses I get from hobbyists in North America and Europe turned out to be one of these 3 species - Leptodictyum riparium, Amblystegium serpens or Fontinalis antipyretica. I think we can save the professor a lot of time if we learn how to identify the mosses ourselves. First thing, of course, is we would need to know how. I will ask the professor, the next time I see him, if he can write up a detailed article on these 3 mosses for us. Actually, he promised to do such an article a few months ago but what with working on a book and many other things, he must have forgotten all about it. I'll remind him when I see him again.

Loh K L

[aliasnumber1]

We appreciate what Prof. Tan has done. In the SW side of the hobby it is much more common for the academics to enter and help, not so much in plants/mosses. It will always be difficult to figure out what mosses we have, most people don't have the optics or training to key out bryophytes. Regionally, or nationally, we could try to find someone who is willing to recieve/grow the samples and make a tenitive ID. I suspected mine was related to the previously identified Amblystegium serpens, and I tried to use the USDA PLANTS database to see the distribution but it wasn't available. On the other hand we could always find our own way to describe the mosses with growth patterns and locations.

Everett

[propor]

Hi

Can Stringy moss attach to wood? If can't , the moss which was founded by kenny is definitely another species. I think that this moss is common in Poland too. In my city and not far away is easy to find Leptodictyum riparium and this "kenny's moss" (i think). I never have seen Stringy moss which is stick by rhizoids to wood! You friends have seen? In wild or in aquarium? kenny - some fronds of your moss was stuck to the wood very strongly?

Sorry, for my english , it is microscopic .

[timebomb]

Your English is okay, Robert. We understand you. But what I find puzzling is how you came to the conclusion that what Kenny showed us is not Leptodictyum riparium. Kenny made no mention whether the moss was growing on driftwood; all he said was he found it stuck to the side of a bridge.

As far as I know, the L. riparium won't grip to driftwoods but this won't tell us much on how to go about identifying it from other mosses.

Loh K L

[propor]

I not good understand what mean : "It was stuck onto the side of a wooden bridge floating on the pond"
"stuck onto" don't mean that it grip to a wooden bridge? It has not grown in?
"wooden bridge" it is not piece of wood free floating on a surface of pond?
timebomb - I don't know how to recognize Stringy moss in all forms, but if I see a moss which grip strongly to wood or rock, I am sure, that it is not Leptodictyum riparium.

We in Europe want to have more than 4 (+Phoenix moss) species of good aquaristic mosses growing in the wild !.

And we have, I think it is the same which kenny found. This moss has leaves at one surface , in submers too. It grow in my aquaria , but I still don't know what is its scientific name.

kenny - grips this moss to driftwood ,in this pond, in some places or not?


Sorry, if I havn't understood this thread at all. Yes, I must learn English.

[imported_kenny]

Hi timebomb and Robert,

I think I confused you guys with the word "stuck".
By "stuck" , I actually meant attached. So yes, the moss was indeed growing on the side of the wooden bridge. The bridge was floating on the water, so half is submerged in water, and half was above water. And the moss was growing where the wood was submerged.

Okay, I'm not good at describing and sorry for the confusion.

I did a search and found a list compiled by a botanist at the local University (the one I am currently attending). Below lists the genera of mosses found in this province and which the genus has been discussed in this forum before:

Amblystegium fluviatile
Amblystegium humile
Amblystegium riparium
Amblystegium serpens
Amblystegium tenax
Amblystegium varium

Fontinalis dalecarlica
Fontinalis hypnoides
Fontinalis novae-angliae

Plagiomnium cilare
Plagiomnium cuspidatum
Plagiomnium drummondii
Plagiomnium ellipticum
Plagiomnium medium

Fissidens bryoides
Fissidens osmundoides

No Leptodictyum , Vesicularia or Taxiphyllum were documented in Manitoba.

Robert, I perfectly understood your first post but the second post was not really clear to me.
Do you mean there are 4 types of aquatic moss growing in the wild ?
You have wild pheonix moss there ?
That is wonderful ! I never knew where they are from, but now I do !

Regards

[imported_kenny]

( The last post is to long so I'm seperating it to 2)

I also appreciate what Dr. Benito and Timebomb has done and would like to give them a BIG THANK YOU.

To help reduce the burden on Dr. Benito and Mr. Loh, maybe we could try to seek help from your local university ? I'm pretty sure there are botanists in every university, although bryologists may be harder to find (maybe?). Also, this would broaden our resources, two (or more) brains work better than one? After a positive ID, the mosses can be shared among the moss collectors. Instead of us sending the same mosses over and over again, wasting time and $$$.

I can help to search for bryologists in your country by searching through the bryophyte-related journals. For example, in the journal The Bryologist, Halina Bednarek-Ochyra and Ryszard Ochyra from Institute of Botany, Polish Academy of Sciences, Kraków, Poland, published an article in 2004 (Lectotypification of Codriophorus aquaticus (Bryopsida, Grimmiaceae)).


Well, it's just a thought. Maybe Dr. Benito and Mr. Loh does in fact enjoy examining the same species of mosses over and over ? I doubt so though...

[propor]

Yes, kenny , in Poland grow Phoenix moss (strictly - Octodiceras(Fissidens ) fontanus). But it is extremely rare, found only at few localities in southern Poland. It is on polish red list .
But this Fissidens is widespread, do you know this side:
http://www.gbif.org/ ?
You can find there several interesting facts about distribution of species of mosses.

Back to the moss about we are speaking, you don't reply have it all leaves in one surface (lateral fronds??- sorry - my English)?

Another surprise - we have in polish flora Mini pellia - Riccardia chamedryfolia .

About list of species , kenny mentioned, all species without Fontinalis novae-angliae grows there, a lot of them is common.

I think , we must consider families: Amblystegiaceae, Brachytheciaceae ewentually Mniaceae if we want to identify a moss kenny found. I am sure that it is not from family Fontinalaceae.

[imported_kenny]

Hi Robert,

my posts were so out of topic, I forgot to describe the moss !

Well, the leaves do not grow neatly side by side. Every leaf points in different directions, which I think looks like the nano moss (Amblystegium serpens) in this post.


Seems like there are many interesting mosses and liverworts in Polska suitable for the aquarium. This is going to be fun for you!

Let's hope we can discover them so that moss aquascapes can be more vibrant !

By the way, are you writing in English by yourself or did you use a translator ? I tried translating some Polish sentences (www.poltran.com) and they did not make much sense.

Here is a translation of what is written above (just for fun)

Moje komunikaty (stanowisko) były tak (więc) zza tematu, zapominam opisywać *moss* ! Dobrze, urlopy nie rośnie (uprawiać; stawać się) schludnie obok. Każdy *leaf* wskazuje (kieruje) w różnych kierownictwach (kierunek), który obmyślam wygląda jak *nano* *moss* (*Amblystegium* *serpens*) w tym komunikacie (stanowisko). Wydaje się jak (podobny do; podobnie do tego; upodobanie do) tam są wiele interesujący *mosses* i *liverworts* w *Polska* odpowiedni dla *aquarium*. zamierza być zabawą dla was! Niech nadzieja możemy odkrywać & (oni) tak (więc) co (żeby; który) *moss* *aquascapes* może jest bardziej (więcej) wibrujący!

I doubt you can understand that...

Regards.

[timebomb]

Okay, guys, I was with the professor just now and I asked him a few questions.

First of all, he said almost all mosses produce rhizoids (hair-like roots). The only ones that don't are the truly aquatic mosses, one of which he said is Spaghnum Moss, sometimes called Peat Moss or Bog Moss. In other words, the aquarium mosses we grow in our tanks, Leptodictyum riparium being one of them should attach itself to the objects they are grown on. If they don't, it's either because they were not grown long enough or it's because they were grown submersed. In their natural habitats, few of the aquarium mosses we know are found in complete submersed conditions. More often, they grow on land where it's very wet but the moss isn't completely under water. Even if it were, it's not under water all the time but only for certain periods of the year.

Please take note that when I said the moss Kenny has is L. riparium, I also added that I could be entirely wrong. It looks like I was wrong as Kenny has discovered that L. riparium isn't native to Manitoba where he lives. The moss he has could be a species of Amblystegium. Both the Amblystegium and Leptodictyum mosses show a mid-costa in their leaves. The former though has smaller leaves than the latter. The professor told me the 2 are related in some sort of way. In fact, the L. riparium is some sort of a new genus as it was classified as an Amblystegium formerly.

It's all very confusing and I'm sorry I can't explain the situation better. But the professor has promised he will do an article on the 3 temperate mosses. It will have to wait until late August though when he has more free time.

In the meantime, I'll be happy to bring the moss to the professor for you, Kenny. Just send some over.

Loh K L

[propor]

kenny - he, he - don't use translator - I good understand your English , but if I read polish translation, I'm completly puzzled. Polish is very difficult language .

Yes, now I know, you found different moss from this what I found . Fronds of my moss are lateral. It is a good moss for aquarium, grows in 28 d. C too. Now I haven't camera, but in future I will do photo.

Hmmm.. Fronds of your moss on the photo looks like lateral (in one surface).

You good understand my English

By the way, who knows, all Taxiphyllum in the world are semi- aquatic

[imported_kenny]

I'm not sure if this helps, but here are 2 more pictures that are bigger and hopefully clearer. (Click on picture to enlarge)


And yes, I can also faintly see a mid costa in the larger leaves, but I cannot be sure for the smaller leaves. They are just too small for my camera and my naked eyes.

I have not tied the moss to anything yet so I do not know if the submersed shoots will attach itself on objects.

Mr. Loh, I will definitely send them to you if you wish, I'm just afraid you'll be disappointed if this moss turns out to be the same old stuff. Give me a little time, ya ?
Robert, do you want some too ? If you do not have this moss , maybe we can exchange the moss that we both found.
So you found a moss which you think is Taxiphyllum ? Show us a picture !

Cheers !

[fabry]

Hi Kenny (K.L. and all),
the moss you found is much likely Leptodictyum riparium.
It looks like L. riparium and looks also identical to the specimens I have.

Consider that Leptodictyum riparium is a typical member of the family Amblystegiaceae and sometimes it is still called Amblystegium riparium (and sometimes also confused with other A. species).

So the two (L. riparium and A. riparium) are often considered synonyms.
http://wisplants.uwsp.edu/bryophytes...?SpCode=LEPRIP

If you check the list you have been given at your local university you will see that Amblystegium riparium (Leptodyctium riparium) is one of the species you can find locally.

Best regards.

Fabrizio.

[timebomb]

Thanks for the clarification, Fabrizio. So it looks like I was right after all

But just to point out something, the professor told me that Leptodictyum riparium is now considered a separate genus from Amblystegium. Formerly, they were considered the same but now, bryologists all over the world accept them to be different. That's what the prof told me so it looks like the list that Kenny showed us hasn't been updated.

But we will know for sure when Kenny sends his moss over.

Loh K L

[primavera]

It looks like my stringy moss too. Where I found it, it has both emergent and submergent growth. The emergent ones certainly looks like Kenny's first picture. It was amazing that this area had the emergent ones growing right into the water(or is it the other way round), and one could see the transition from frondlike to stringy.

I'll try to to go back and take a picture some time soon. The submerged ones grow very long, from the bottom of the pond bed straight up. Oh, and the emergent ones do cling to (in this case) rocks, and very well infact, that it was very hard to pull a bit up without breaking a frond.

I started with a 3cm emergent piece, and they immediately put out long stringy growth from the fronds. They seem to attach, albeit only slightly, if you have a piece of wood nearby, touching, parallel to the vertical growth. If you mount it flat, it just grows like long straight strands.

Regards

Min

[timebomb]

Thanks for the input, Min.

Just to add on to what Min has said about emersed and submersed growth - when we grow the aquarium mosses, we are, in fact, altering their life-cycles and forcing them to behave un-naturally because almost none of them are truly aquatic plants.

I asked the professor the other day why the Taxiphyllum's in our tanks, namely the Taiwan, Java and Spiky Moss do not throw out sporophytes and he said that in nature, they do but in our tanks, they don't. He does not fully understand why but he believes it's got to do with fully-submersed growth.

Loh K L

[imported_kenny]

Hi Min,

your description of your moss is kind of similar to the one I found. But we'll know for sure when it gets to Singapore. By the way, are you studying in Sydney ? Know of any bryologists there ?

Timebomb, thanks for the info abt the Taxiphyllum. Hopes the prof discovers the reasons why they don't throw out sporophytes in our tanks.

Regards.

[primavera]

Yup Kenny, I'm a student here. I don't know of any bryologist here, should try looking, but doubt if I'll find anyone. Aussies are big on gardening, plants etc, but mainly terrestrial and macrophytes, if you know what I mean.

I'm actually in KL now. I've brought back 2 vesicularia looking mosses, grows submersed too, from Sydney. Will try to make a trip to Singapore to hand them to timebomb here for identification, if he (and the professor) are willing. The mosses are not doing well though, turning a bit brown from the heat I suppose. Ah, if only I could drive long distance...South bound.

Ok, off topic. Sorry.

Regards

Min