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Thread: Eleocharis with killies in biotope minitank

  1. #1
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    Eleocharis with killies in biotope minitank

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    I am planing a nice mini biotope tank to house my pair of Austrolebias nigripinnis. I'll be using what is known here as a "#4 tank" that holds about 10 liters net volume.

    I'm planning on using laterite and sand for most of the tank with the exception of a peat-filled spawning plastic container. I plan to grow Eleocharis minima rooted, Salvinia biloba or S. minima floating, and Ceratophyllum demersum all over the tank. Tank is to be kept at room temperature (ca. 20-25 Celsius, higher during the summer), and lighted with about 15-20 W fluorescent (just tri-phosforus). No CO2 addition after the first week or so (yeast method); I reckon peat decomposition will provide plenty of CO2. No filtration but perhaps some aireation to provide gentle water movement.

    Animal population, besides Austrolebias nigripinnis: a trio of livebearing killie Cnesterodon decemmacultus (they nibble around and I hope they'll clear surface scum), and maybe 1 or 2 ghost shrimps Paleamonetes argentinus.

    All species are native to the biotope (Pampasic flooded areas), except for the Eleocharis minima, but some other Eleocharis does occur---I rather stick to tried aquarium plants for now, I may try the native Eleocharis spp. later.

    So, the plan is to use the Eleocharis minima as background and (sic, gasp! :P ) and middle ground plant. I have no experience growing this plant, and in fact, not much experience with plants at all. So... can it be done? Suggestions? Should I use another species of Eleocharis? Other changes?

    Thanks!
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

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    Gustavo,

    I've not heard of Eleocharis minima so I ran a check on google. I found it's the same as E. parvulus, commonly known as Hairgrass.

    Your setup sounds fine. Your water is definitely cold enough for Hairgrass. The problem with this plant is the planting. You have to separate the stalks and plant them apart from each other. A pair of tweezers is an essential tool. It can be back-breaking work but your tank is small so it shouldn't be a big problem.

    With the Ceratophyllum demersum, often simply known as Hornwort, it's good to keep in mind that this plant melts if there's a sudden change in water parameters. In other words, if you take this plant and transfer it into another tank or if you make large water changes, the leaves will melt.

    I'm puzzled why you are not planning on having filtration. With a small tank, you can use a small sponge filter or even better, a mechanical one which you can hang to the tank on the outside.

    Stephen Hellner who's an expert on SAA's once said in this forum that with the Simpsonicthys magnificus, it's important not to use peat moss because the fibres get attached to the gills of the fish, thereby killing them. I don't know if the A. nigripinnis is just as sensitive but it's always good to have a filter in the tank to clear up all the small particles.

    Loh K L

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    Re: Eleocharis with killies in biotope minitank

    Quote Originally Posted by gacp
    I am planing a nice mini biotope tank...
    I reckon peat decomposition will provide plenty of CO2. No filtration but perhaps some aireation to provide gentle water movement.
    It is not easy to create a self-balanced eco tank and more so for a 10 litres ones. It is going to be a challenge but I wish to encourage.
    Depending on peat decomposition to provide CO2 is not practical as controlling or getting the desire result (naturally) is tough in a small environment. Having said that, the acidic solution from the peat is known to promote good root growth.
    In such nano tank, you got to do things in moderation to acheive desired balance. From the amount of peat/laterite/etc nutrient source, to the filtration flow rate and fish load, you ought to be conservative. For such course, you naturally need alot of experiments and wise to start slow.
    Filteration and cool water will help in getting the water column excess nutrient in check and (the cool water) slow down metabolism which provide buffer for any in-balance.
    Don't be discourage from what I said. Try it out.

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    OK, so far:

    Eleocharis spp.: I knew about the synonymy, I thought E. minima Kunth 1837 was the botanically valid name for this plant. (This kind of crap was what drew me away from science; they are not doing their job, and won't let others do it either ). There are a number of species of Eleocharis, several under cultivation for aquaria. I thought I'd deal with an understood species before I deal with the native ones like E. bonariensis, which are an unknown factor.

    Yes, thanks Loh K L, I forgot about the hornwort shedding its leaves!!! Hmmm, maybe I should look for another candidate, or keep it at lower densities. Use Myriophyllum aquaticum instead, which is also there?

    Small sponge filter: you guys won't believe this, but you can't get them here. Worse, you can find local-made ones that just won't work. And no, I am not unable to make one myself, I have. The problem is the plastic sponge itself with cell size big enough, which is unobtainable here. But I will have to find one, you guys are right about the peat. Anyway, I remembered that, while the water itself is stagnant, it is far from quiet much of the time: winds in the Pampas are not a joke, and the water is exposed wide open and ofter very shallow. Also, rain, which is pervading: it rains and dizzles a lot, on and off all day long, for days sometimes, lots of days, and again the water body is exposed. So, no aireation is actually not naturalistic!

    It is not easy to create a self-balanced eco tank and more so for a 10 litres ones. Boy, is that an understatement. These biotopes themselves aren't ecologically balanced, not only they are far from any equilibrium, they are outright extremely unstable open ecosystems. Nor am I silly enough to try; I wan't just to attempt to recreate a simile of what happens in nature; a more or less stable, yet temporary state of affairs, that will hold long enough for the azulejos (Austrolebias spp.) to live their lives, which is esentially a hit&run operation :P .

    CO2: I plan not to add it, I simply expect quite a bit will be generated by decomposition in the peat pit, a considerable amount of peat that is given as part of the setup as Austrolebias are the stars of the movie.


    Thanks for all the help so far, people, and please, anyone other who can add to the idea, especially those with hands on experience on Eleocharis spp., please do it!

    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

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    Gustavo,

    I think I can help you with the sponge filters. I was just packing my stuff this morning and I think I have at least 10 that are no longer in use. Let me have your mailing address through email or private message and I'll send a couple to you.

    In return, I wonder if you can send me the Eleocharis bonariensis you mentioned. I've not heard of this plant so I want to try and grow it. Deal?

    Loh K L

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    Quote Originally Posted by timebomb
    Gustavo,
    I think I can help you with the sponge filters. I was just packing my stuff this morning and I think I have at least 10 that are no longer in use. Let me have your mailing address through email or private message and I'll send a couple to you.

    In return, I wonder if you can send me the Eleocharis bonariensis you mentioned. I've not heard of this plant so I want to try and grow it. Deal?
    Loh K L
    I take on the deal, but later, OK? After the hornwort decided to do its trick, I decied to go ahead and shell out $10 (pesos, not Usan dollars) for a local POS filter. Oh, the tubing is workable enough, it is the sponge that's bad, and it's not the money, but knowing that I am rewarding someone for producing crap.

    What we need here, we serious hobbyists, is a source of decent open-cell sponge. We are quite a crafty bunch, we can do the rest, but we can't manufacture the stuff ourselves.

    Anyway, teh POS filter works, sort of. The azulejos still hang close to the surface from time to time, particularly after feedings, pretty much motionless. I guess it is normal for them. And I will make sure to clean that dammed closed-cell mattress sponge often enough.

    I got a trio of local livebearing killies, Cnesterodon decemmaculatus, to clean up a little. Cute little fishes! Nothing spectacular colour-wise, but I knew them well and I expected them to stay greyish with dark spots. Well, courting males, at least, turn lemon yellow with black dots. I think most people never give these fishes a fair chance.

    About the Eleocharis bonariensis: I've never seen it, yet! Or rather, I most likely did see it, but never cared; it is not a conspicuous plant (like, say Sagittaria spp. or Pistia spp.) anyway, just more "grass" under your boots when you got collecting ("charquear" in local parla). But it's listed as one of several Eleocharis spp. to be found around Buenos Aires, along with E. montana, E. elegans, E. viridans, and some 10 other. And I do not know whether it will be of any use, or even survive, in aquaria. But I will get some of it soon (maybe next weekend), and see about it. You are welcome to some if you want it. Perhaps we can arrange a multi-person, multi-species "bulk" exchange between Baires (Buenos Aires ) and Singapore? There are bound to be more people interested at both ends.

    Sorry, but all this must take lower priority to get a job! Not surprising, the same peolple who destroyed the country are still making too many decisions around here, like the morons who simply destroyed the aquarium hobby here with their moronic greed. Perhaps i should move to Singhapura, after all, har har har :P ?

    But don't worry, you&me and more people from Baires and Singapore, we'll be doing lots of kewl things together later, I hope.

    Best from the Pampas! 再见 & chaucito
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

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    Gustavo,

    I don't know if a bulk exchange is a good idea. If we send a big box over, chances are it will draw too much attention from the customs and the box will probably be confiscated. I won't mind sending you the sponge filters first. You can take your time to send the Eleocharis to me. I'm not fussy about the species. Any of those you named will be good enough for me.

    Loh K L

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    Are you planning on drying out the tank or somehow harvesting the Aust. nigripinnis eggs? I have Eleocharis parvulus growing in my backyard and hornwort so maybe I could put together a biotope.
    ~Joseph

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonamethefish
    Are you planning on drying out the tank or somehow harvesting the Aust. nigripinnis eggs? I have Eleocharis parvulus growing in my backyard and hornwort so maybe I could put together a biotope.
    No, the azulejos will have their own little "peat pit", a plastic box in a corner. I plan to collect the peat monthly and replace it with new peat.

    I will look more carefully on the actual floristic composition of azulejos' biotopes around here, but these are the some of the plants I know occur in local waterbodies, either by personal obs or from books, that could be used in aquaria.

    Submersed: Egeria densa, Ceratophyllum spp. (2 species), Myriophyllum spp., Potamogeton spp., Bacopa sp., Ludwigia sp., Cabomba carolinana.

    Floating: Pistia stratiotes, Salvinia spp,, Limnobium sp., Eichornia crassipes, Azolla spp, Lemnacea, Hydrocotyle sp.

    Emersed: Sagittaria montevidensis, Echinodorus spp., Cyperus spp,, Eleocharis spp., Hydrocotyle spp.

    Again, the only time I collected azulejos (A. bellottii) I was looking for other animals (namely, frogs), and the biotope was basically grass. under 20 cm of water, beside a major highway in Ezeiza, Greater Buenos Aires. There was a fence wich bisected the biotope, in fact, most of it was inside some athletic club or something like that. Again, the typical biotope for azulejos is flooded subtropical Neotropical savannah. I expect the floristical composition, as aquatic plants go, is likely to be somewhat haphazard, a subset from the regional pool of species, changing from location to location and from one year to another according to envirommental conditions and opportunity, Also, given that the places dry up for months, a true biotope is mostl likely not feasible, as too many abundant species are flood-tolerant annual grasses and other grasses which grow emersed.


    This is the 'home' of the pair I got as a present:

    http://killiclub.elacuarista.com/ima...punta-lara.htm

    Similar biotopes:
    http://killiclub.elacuarista.com/imagenes/campana.htm
    http://killiclub.elacuarista.com/imagenes/litoral1.htm
    http://killiclub.elacuarista.com/imagenes/litoral2.htm
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

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    Thanks for the pictures, Gustavo. They are fascinating.

    I'm inclined to believe now, that I never had much success with the Austrolebias because of the depth of my tanks. I think my water is too deep. Do you think shallow water would make a difference?

    Loh K L

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    Quote Originally Posted by timebomb
    I'm inclined to believe now, that I never had much success with the Austrolebias because of the depth of my tanks. I think my water is too deep. Do you think shallow water would make a difference?

    Loh K L
    While I do not know for sure, azulejos are pretty much always found in very shallow water, AFAIK. So it is well worth a try. And azulejos themselves are certanly worth the trouble!

    You've heard the phrases "rolling hills" and "ondulated plains". Well, forget those---the land here is flat as a pancake for hundreds of kilometers around, loess sediment hundreds of meters thick. Natural depressions are very shallow and even permanent ponds and lakes are often only a few meters deep at most. Slope is so slight that water takes a long time to decide which way to flow, and often evaporates before making its mind. Also, lots of clay, if I remenber correcltly. Hence, lots of flooded savannah patches, and azulejos in them. Well, you can look at the pictures :P

    On the other hand (and remember that I am a newbie killiephile), I heard that a major problem with Austrolebias spp. is temperature that is too high. Makes sense; remember that Austrolebias are subtropical fish, and at least the southern species (bellotti, nigripinnis, elongatus, robustus) are born in autumn, breed during winter and spring, and die by summer. Temperatures out there now are about 5-10 C. I keep mine at room temperature, some 20 C . I expect Singapore will give you trouble on that regard.


    Update on my tank. I got some Eleocharis vivipara. Not native, AFAIK, but close enough. They came in a little pot, and look not too well, as they were planted recently (I knew, but this was the only source). They seem to be doing OK. I also got some Najas, probably Najas guadalupensis, which is not autochtonous, but I fell in love with the plant and I wil use it for a future tank (probably a Apistogramma commbrae/Rivulus puntatus-based biotope; there are Najas spp. north of Buenos Aires, but not so far south, and probably not N. guadalupensis---once again, close enough for now. I also got some Salvinia sp. as a handout, in horrible condition, but they are coming back fast. The hornwort seem to have decided to behave, and with the red stems it looks very nice. Finally, I got quite a few Paleamonetes argentinus ghost shrimps. I had to buy a whole lot of them, as they are sold as live food; the are very cute, and I donīt want to kill the excess

    As soon as I get enough of the plants for the biotope setup, I plan to redo the tank with substrate (laterite topped by fine gravel and sand topped (inevitably ) by a little peat, and get rid of the watersprite and Java moss that now are still very prominent (and much needed!).
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

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    Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank.

    I would still suggest going for the normal parvula hairgrasses or similar local ones which are smaller. I've grown parvulas, acicularis and 2 australian native hairgrasses (no id), and they are all easy. The native ones are slower growing (probably more of an amphibious species), but parvulas and acicularis are really easy. I find that CO2 initially (first 3 weeks)helps them grow fast into a carpet, then I go non-CO2. I also use laterite with peat moss for bottom, topped with sand. Good luck.

    Min

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    Quote Originally Posted by primavera
    Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank.

    Min
    Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even want for Eleocharis to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a flooded grassland.

    BTW: I got some native Eleocharis spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the Limnobium laevigatum I wanted for the tank, and 1 Lilaeopsis sp. and Hydrocotyle ranunculoides (there was H. leucocephala, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

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    Quote Originally Posted by primavera
    Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank.

    Min
    Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even want for Eleocharis to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a flooded grassland.

    BTW: I got some native Eleocharis spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the Limnobium laevigatum I wanted for the tank, and 1 Lilaeopsis sp. and Hydrocotyle ranunculoides (there was H. leucocephala, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

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    Quote Originally Posted by primavera
    Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank.

    Min
    Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even want for Eleocharis to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a flooded grassland.

    BTW: I got some native Eleocharis spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the Limnobium laevigatum I wanted for the tank, and 1 Lilaeopsis sp. and Hydrocotyle ranunculoides (there was H. leucocephala, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

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    double post
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

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    Quote Originally Posted by primavera
    Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank.

    Min
    Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even want for Eleocharis to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a flooded grassland.

    BTW: I got some native Eleocharis spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the Limnobium laevigatum I wanted for the tank, and 1 Lilaeopsis sp. and Hydrocotyle ranunculoides (there was H. leucocephala, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by primavera
    Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank.

    Min
    Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even want for Eleocharis to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a flooded grassland.

    BTW: I got some native Eleocharis spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the Limnobium laevigatum I wanted for the tank, and 1 Lilaeopsis sp. and Hydrocotyle ranunculoides (there was H. leucocephala, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by primavera
    Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank.

    Min
    Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even want for Eleocharis to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a flooded grassland.

    BTW: I got some native Eleocharis spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the Limnobium laevigatum I wanted for the tank, and 1 Lilaeopsis sp. and Hydrocotyle ranunculoides (there was H. leucocephala, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by primavera
    Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank.

    Min
    Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even want for Eleocharis to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a flooded grassland.

    BTW: I got some native Eleocharis spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the Limnobium laevigatum I wanted for the tank, and 1 Lilaeopsis sp. and Hydrocotyle ranunculoides (there was H. leucocephala, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.
    Gustavo
    Do not meddle in affairs of cichlids 4 they r subtle & quick 2 anger

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