Mosses for a nano..?

[ChrisUK]

Hi. My first time here, although I've been reading through some past threads for a day or so. Now I have a specific appeal for advice: I understand you're the people to talk to about anything moss-related.

A friend of mine has been admiring my planted nano tanks and the shrimp in them, and would like a small, easy-to-maintain nano in order to house a few cherry shrimp.

I'd like to save costs and intended to use a small vase I have - it's a six inch cube, which works out at a capacity of 4 litres or 1 US gallon. I also have a spare Azoo Palm light ( 3 Watts ). I know that this is a low level of light, so was thinking about planting only mosses - which I guess the shrimp will like, too.



The tank will be unheated.

Can you recommend which mosses would be the most appropriate for this small tank, bearing in mind the temperature (I figure 18-20 C).

Also, would any substrate (such as plain pea gravel) be okay, if the moss is going to be tied to rocks or branches?

What kind of fertiliser regime would be necessary? I would anticipate using Flourish excel instead of CO2.

Is the light adequate, or do I have to think about something bigger?

And lastly, does anybody know where to get the best moss from ( I am in the UK)?


Sorry if these questions have been answered before - I did have a look through previous threads. If so, I'd be grateful if you would point me in the right direction...

[Robert]

Hi Chris,
welcome to killies.com!

Most mosses and liverworts can grow quite well under low light conditions, although most of them look best under medium light and extra CO2. But that should not be your concern at the moment, the light source is OK. For you mainly the size of the fronds of the mosses matters. Most Taxiphyllum species become too large for this tiny tank. So I would recommend you Versicular species. Weeping moss on a nice rock or piece of driftwood would look great. Singapore moss would also be nice but the not as nice as the weeping effect of the Weeping moss. I have no idea about Christmas moss because I never kept it myself. But I doubt that it would develop nice fronds int his tank, there is simply too little space.

Another suitable low light plant would be the so called 'Mini-Pelia'. This is a liverwort of the genus Riccardia. It stays small and would grow rather slowly, not like Riccia fluitans.

I would fill the tank about 2-3cm with normal gravel of a size of 1-2 mm. Look for a nice rock or piece of DW which should have a size of about the 1/2 till 2/3 of the tank's height. This would be placed in the middle or one corner. On this piece I would bound the moss or liverwort. On one or two sites of the tank I would plant a bit of hairgrass. For the bottom I would use HC (Hemianthus callichtroides). The hairgrass is a nice contrast to the moss and the HC and all of them seem to grow quite well in nano tanks.

A single downoi (Pogostemon helferi) as a focal point would also look nice.

Try to avoid to plant the moss directly on the gravel. It can become quite a mess, especially if you want or have to clean the tank, e.g. from algae or a water change.

What you can do is to bind the liverwort onto pebbles which you place in the foreground then. BTW, don't use Monosolenium tenerum, which is also known as ''pellia''. It would become too big and also the thalli are too big for the small tank. The Riccardia is quite good for this tank. A small form of Riccia is OK but requires a quite lot of effort to maintain it.

You can order these plants all over the world. Mosses and liverwords are good travelers. In a padded envelop it is no problem to send them from Singapore to the UK for example. They would arrive within a week. Sorry but I can't send you the plants at the moment because I have a shortage of them at the moment (I rescape my show tank and need some of my spare plants). But probably some other members can help you.

Normal liquid ferilizer will do. This Flourish stuff seems to be even better but I can't comment on it because I never used it myself (it's not available in Germany).

In a low light tank with slow growing plants there is no need to add extra CO2. The mentioned plants will grow without it.

BTW, I like to set such a tiny tank too but can't get these clip-on lights here in Germany. So these are my ideas for such a tank.

best regards

Robert

PS After finishing my post I read once again yours and noticed that you already set up nano tanks, so you know all this about rocks and DW and plants (except for mosses). I'm sorry for the long post.

[ChrisUK]

Well, Robert, thanks for replying so promptly. Please don't apologise for the long post - lots of useful information and ideas. Although I did set up a couple of nano planted tanks, I am still very much a beginner and your suggestions were very interesting - some things I didn't think of and will now consider (i.e., i had been thinking of a moss-only tank, but hair grass would make a great contrast to the moss and I hadn't heard of the mini-pelia).

I have seen a shop supplying mosses from Malaysia on Ebay. I had assumed it was too far, but as you say the mosses travel well, I shall give it a try.

I don't know of anybody selling the lights on mail order or over the internet. I have to go to a shop on the opposite side of London to get Azoo equipment which is so suitable for nanos. The shop has a website ( although it's not very good and you can't order from it, but it may be worth asking if they would take an order over the phone and send you the light - they've always been really helpful to me). The URL is :

http://www.africawidetrading.com/

Alternatively, there is an Irish website that sells some Azoo equipment ( although not the light that I have). Again, it might be worth an email to ask if they can get it. Their URL is :

http://www.petshoponline.ie/customer/home.php

Thanks for all the advice.

[ChrisUK]

Any suggestions on the photo-period and water changes?

[timebomb]

Chris,

I have no experience with such tiny tanks so I can't give you any "technical" advice. With mosses though, I can tell you a bit. Generally, the tropical mosses would be too large for your small tank. I would suggest you consider growing the temperate mosses which you could possibly find in your backyard

But seriously, I'm referring to mosses like Leptodictyum riparium and Amblystegium serpens. They have smaller leaves and won't crowd your tank as much as the tropical ones. But if you like to try, let me have your mailing address and I'll send a sample of Taiwan Moss to you.

The liverwort that Robert spoke of, Riccardia sp. is probably unavailable over where you are. I believe the Malaysian source is selling this plant for high prices. I'll see if I can find a strand or 2 of it for you. Here's a picture of the plant if you have never seen it before:



Without a layer of substrate, the tank would look rather bare. I would suggest a thin layer of fine sand. It will give the tank a more natural look.
It would also be a good idea, I think to put in a fairly large piece of driftwood, one that would stick out of the tank. You can even grow terrestrial plants on the emersed part of the wood.

Loh K L

[ChrisUK]

Thanks, Timebomb, for the advice.

I Googled the mosses you mentioned for images, and I really like the look of them. I guess temperate mosses would be more suitable for an unheated tank here in the UK, too.

I looked for anybody selling the Riccardia sp. (really like the look of that, too) but with no luck. The only mosses available here are java moss and - well, that's about all really.

Your offer to send me a couple of samples is extremely kind.

I also like your suggestion of driftwood protruding above the vase - that's a good idea, a good way to expand beyond the small size of the tank.

Do you know of any internet-based dealers for the Amblystegium serpens and Leptodictyum riparium in your part of the world?

[imported_diki]

BTW, I like to set such a tiny tank too but can't get these clip-on lights here in Germany. So these are my ideas for such a tank.

Just to provide you a alternative lighting...

You can actually try to get a nice desktop lamp (those for reading ones using PL lights) for your nano tanks if you cannot find any clip on lights. I'm using 1 for my 1 ft tank in office growing moss, crypt and narrow java fern and it works well for me.

[Robert]

Hi Dickson,
here in Germany CF bulbs are not common. We use them for industrial lights in sealings but that's it. Never saw such a desktop lamp here. In some better flesh lights you can find CF bulbs, too. But all in all they are not very common. I sold lamps for a while and saw probably all kinds of illumination used in private houses. Lamps with Compact Fluorescence bulbs were not among them.

I know there is at least one LFS in Germany which has Azoo products, although they are damn expensive. But the last times I visited it, it had no Azpp palm lamps. Hopefully I'll find another shop tomorrow in Frankfurt. I will make a tour to see some of the better shops of this town and hopefully find something useful. The CF bulbs are no problem, I got two from the mentioned shop but the lamp is a problem.

Chris, I took a look in the online shops. They are interesting and the prices are lower than here in Germany in some cases. But I guess shipping costs will be not really cheap.

I moved last week, let me see how much of the Amblystegium serpens made it into my new apartment. The moss is really small and develops seldom nice fronts. It mainly grows straight upward, that's why I didn't mention it. And it can grow quite fast. It's better for breeding tanks because it is very undemanding and hardy. But you can replace the hairgrass with it pretty well.

best regards

Robert

[t4.]

I currently have a roughly .5 gallon nano with HC, dwarf Riccia, Christmas moss, and Fissidens fontanus. I have a 13-watt PC light (an Azoo clip-on, actually), daily/every other day (depending on whether I'm being lazy) water changes, occasional Excel or carbonated water, and everything seems to be growing well enough.

One issue you might want to consider is the tank's temperature. Mine varies a lot and is usually, I believe, warmer than ideal moss-growing conditions. This hasn't stopped the moss from growing, granted, but it might not be growing as nicely as it potentially could!

There are plans for a small, cheap, and what looks to me to be a fairly easy-to-build chiller at http://shrimpnow.com/modules.php?nam...warticle&id=40 (there are also many posts about chillers on these forums). I'm thinking about building one myself but am taking my time about it. If you find that your tank is too warm or that its temperature is varying too much for your taste, though, it might come in handy.

Good luck!

-Chris

[imported_diki]

Hi Robert

If that is the case, the other alternative is to try DIY. If you can get good reflectors (optional but good to have. Else can consider aluminium foil as it can stand the heat)and the correct light holder, I think that should not be too difficult and can be fun. Maybe if you go travelling to other countries, you can get one or buy one online if you can find one.

Regards

[Robert]

Hi,
my trip to Frankfurt's shops was successful. I got a 11W PL lamp (http://www.aquatic-nature.be/deutsch...ls/spectra.htm) by Aquatic Nature. It's a nice lamp and the price was ok with €33,50. The Azoo lamps cost even more and they had only the small 7W lamps in terrible colors like red, green etc.

Chris, I rescaped my tank today and didn't use all of my weeping moss. If you want to get a small sample, send me a pm. I can put a few fronds of some other mosses e.g. Amblystegium serpens etc. into the envelop, too. I have also a bit of this seaweed-like fern prothalium and a bit of Monosolenium tenerum for you, if you are interested. I have very little of this Riccardia sp. left too but you would have to grow it yourself to a use-able size. This would require some weeks or even months.

best regards

Robert

[ChrisUK]

Hi Robert,

I'm glad you found your lamp. Those lights look great - much nicer than the Azoo lights. You are right about the horrible, childish, primary colours of the Azoo lights - I had to pay extra to buy the black ones. The light you bought looks much more serious. I wish they sold them here; I would definitely change all my lights.

Thanks for the offer of a sample of weeping moss, I've sent a pm.

Good luck setting up your new tank.

I have ordered some gravel and rock today for my mini shrimp/moss tank. Looking forward to getting started.

Chris.

[TsjaTTer]

Chris,

I see you live in the UK. These lamps are sold in the Netherlands and Germany, possibly even in the UK. Maybe you could order one via a webshop?


Jan

[ChrisUK]

Jan,

I've never seen them in the UK. I also really liked that company's nano tanks (following a link from Robert's link). I'm going to have a search for them.

Chris.

[imported_diki]

Hi Robert

Glad you found a lamp for your tank. I have seen this type of lamp in Singapore before but it was a last one and without the clip so I did not get it. I do agree the AZOO lights is a little turn-off and more suitable for really small or low light plants. I just find them too small for my needs.

Best regards

[ChrisUK]

Well, it was only a couple of weeks ago that I posted here to ask for some advice on growing mosses, and I now have a tank of moss, thanks to Timebomb and Joteo who both kindly sent me plants.

The tank is in a temporary state at the moment, as I am about to buy some driftwood next week - it is impossible to find 'branch-y' driftwood here, and one internet dealer has started to sell it, but it's a little expensive, and it's had to wait a week or two. I'm actually buying it for my main tank, but will use a bit of it for this tiny moss nano. So far, I have attached the moss to some nice rocks that I have ( from the same company - we have had nowhere in this country to buy good hard landscaping until now). I'm sure the mosses will look better on wood, too.

I really want the driftwood, as I would like something to break the surface of the tank, as suggested by Timebomb. I have some hairgrass sitting in another tank to add and although I agree with Robert's suggestion that HC would look good, I am struggling a little with HC in another tank at the moment, where it is being smothered by BGA, so may not add that.

Finally, I want to replace the gravel with some ADA Aqua Soil, as the original intention was for a tank for shrimp, and I understand that Aqua Soil will help to soften the water ( which here is very hard ).

So here are some pictures, and my apologies for the quality, as they were taken with my phone-camera.





On the rocks in the centre is the Tawian Moss and on the front-right the mini pelia kindly sent by Timebomb. At the rear is the Spiky Moss sent by Joteo. There is also some Stringy moss from Joteo, too, but it's hard to see it in the pictures (-its on the left; you can see it if you look hard).



I originally started with the idea of making a simple-to-maintain tank for a friend who wanted to keep some shrimps. I've really become fascinated by mosses now, and I'm thrilled to have some of my own now - they're so much more beautiful than anything I have seen available here. I shall have to get another mini-tank and divide everything in two so that my friend can have his shrimp tank and I can have my moss tank.

Thanks everybody for all the advice - I'm sure that I'll need more as I continue.

Chris.

[timebomb]

Chris,

Are the mosses tied down to the rocks? They don't appear to be so. Anyway, I must say I like your rock arrangement. You have the artist's touch.

Loh K L

[ChrisUK]

Timebomb,

The rocks have lots of small holes and crevices, so I have stuck the Tawian moss in them. The Spiky moss is tied to small rocks at the back, just to anchor them but as it is long it is looking 'loose.'

Thanks, I think it looks nice already, even though its very simple, but I think that is due to the mosses being so beautiful and such a great colour.

Chris.

[timebomb]

Oh, you should tie them down, Chris. Believe me, it will look much better later. Since your tank is very small, this is what you can do:

Tie the mosses to the rocks. Tie them down flat. After a while, the fronds will grow out. When they have grown enough, take the rocks out and snip away all the fronds that stick out. Put the rocks back again and after a while, you will find the second batch of new growth looks a lot nicer than the first one. It should become more compact and this should be ideal for a small tank.

Loh K L

[ChrisUK]

Timebomb,

Thanks for the tip. I'd really like that compact, bushy look I've seen in some of the pictures here, especially those from the Bioplast shop.

Perhaps I'll wait until I get the driftwood and do the final landscaping? They'll be okay like this for a week or two, won't they?

Chris.