Greetings and a question

[Shaggathai]

Hello all, I've lurked on this forum off and on since I started becoming interested in killies earlier this year. I purchased a pair of A. australe's at a lfs, I'd only seen pictures of killies before and and was wow'd by the fact they were even more beautiful in person. After that first taste, things went downhill from there and I became a killie-aholic.

Now that winter is arriving, I'm working on setting up about 5 of my tanks as planted setups for pairs/trios. I have a pair of Fp. oeseri in a tank that I'd been throwing spare java ferns, mosses, water sprite, etc, into, so it's become rather dense in foliage. Yesterday I found a couple of fry, 1/4-1/2", and am very excited about them as I've no luck with any of the eggs I've collected from any species.

I have an otto in the tank and just a week ago added a small (1-1/2") bristlenose pleco, and plan to use a small bn in each of my planted killie tanks when I get them going. I was wondering if otto's or bn's will eat killie eggs?

[timebomb]

Greetings to you too, Dawn and welcome to Killies.com.

I'm not sure about the Bristlenose but I'm certain the Oto won't eat the eggs.
The natural way, that is, to let them breed naturally in a densely planted tank works well for some Killies but as far as I know, it won't work with the A. australes. With this species, you have to collect eggs or you won't see any fry.

Loh K L

[zmzfam]

Hi Dawn,

Welcome to our little den. With killies, a pair or species will never be enough. The only way you'll scale down is when the authorities clamped down on your "operation".

Anyway, each breeder or keeper of killies has his/her own set of things which will work for him/her. My experience with australes - especially the EBTs - is that I'll fail with every batch of eggs I collect. Out of frustration, I just let them be in a very dirty and neglected tank, full of moss.

Guess my suprise when I decided to clean the tank, I found several frys and sub-adult growing in there. So, YMMV.

[stormhawk]

Hi Dawn,

Nice to know that you're having Fp. oeseri spawn for you. They apparently seem to be endangered in the wild.

If you see any fry again, scoop them out and raise them separately from the parents. Sometimes if you leave the fishes well alone, they'll produce good eggs and won't bother their fry.

I recall seeing lots of baby A. australes in a 4 footer at Mr Ronwill's 24th floor killie corner, and there was alot of adults in there too. Sometimes they'll prey on their fry, but if you keep the parents well-fed and happy, the babies might just make it through.

Of course, provide lots of hiding places. It seems the "messier" the tank, the higher the chances of survival.

[Shaggathai]

Thank you all. Loh, I'll see what happens with the bristlenoses if nobody else chimes in about them. Oddly, the oto's I've put in killie tanks thrive, where in my other tanks they may or may not, for a random amount of time. I'm hoping the small bn's will work, I'd much rather buy them from breeders than otto's from the lfs.

Zulkifli, there needs to be warnings about killies, "worse than potato chips, you'll want more and more and more!" I have an area in the dining room with a large buffett, I used to keep orchids on it. Put a 10g tank with endlers on one end, then a while later discovered killies. They took over all the space, have tanks all the way across the buffett, some on a box to the side, and most have a second "critter keeper" type tank on top. I'm thinking of other places I can do a little set up of tanks in the house. Or the barn, if I could keep the tanks warm enough there...I know, I'm so screwed.

Jianyang, one of the reasons I was so excited is that I've read they are endangered or even extinct in the wild. I'm working on setting up a small tank with dividers for different sized fry, the amount of heated tanks I can have is limited. Winter is setting in here, and while the house stays 65-70, the killie setup is right by windows that radiate the cold. I read on one website (I forget the name) that they do and grow best raised with their parents. I'm guessing tho that does not bode well for the newly hatched ones. I started feeding bbs as soon as I saw the second baby, hopefully the older sibling(s) will stay content until I get a setup for fry.

My "omg I have the most cool idea" to get around my problem with australe's, since of the many eggs I've collected, I got 6 to hatch, one made it almost 2 weeks but barely grew, is to seperate the males and females (2 pair), feed them up with live foods, put them back together in the tank for a couple of days, fish out fry as I see them, lather rinse repeat. I do know one of my australe females is an egg eater, saw her munching when she was in a tank with the male she came with. I might try that with the Fp. oeseri.

I've made soooo many mistakes since getting killies. I have many "single lonely hearts" of species because I took out the java moss in a few small tanks to clean it from debris, and forgot to put it back. The males by the next day had the females shredded. Conversely, I have a female blue gularis that killed her just sexed out suitor, had lots of cover in that tank. I was told tho, "50/50 chance they'll kill each other if kept together". "Pffffft", said I, "they will be so happy and well fed in my tank they wouldn't think of being aggressive, why would they when I feed them so much!!! A couple weeks later, *dead little dude fish*. And, starting out I kept my killie tanks, rilly rilly rilly clean. They seem to do much better when I'm not so anal about keeping the tank clean. I also somehow nuked some tanks either during water change or I feed bad frozen food. Whatever I did wrong, the survivors of that couple of days are doing fine.

I now don't do waterchanges on the smaller tanks every 2-3 days (75-90%) anymore. I didn't realize this applied to fish, but "a bit dirty is soooo good."

Babbled much, my appolgies, I'm just fish happy!!!!(a big sign of killie-aholism).

[RonWill]

I'm just fish happy!!!!(a big sign of killie-aholism).

That's alright, Dawn, you just need therapy and yes, some of us are really screwed (while others get chased out of home! )

About your australe, they will reproduce albeit with fewer surviving fry, when in a permanent setup (without actively collecting eggs). Just make sure there's plenty of plants like moss and floaters with bushy roots. This works with most Aphysomenion and Rivulus as well.

I'm not sure how low your ambient temps are but it sounds good for high-land and gaudy killies (elberti and striatum, just two more to feed your addiction).

Bristlenose will do ok if you provide them swimming space, a dining spot and don't neglect to vary their diet. Before introduction, use low suds and rinse very well.

Lastly, is your name really Dawn? I'm asking because I thought it unlikely for a lady to nick herself "shagg-a-who??". Oh well, maybe I'm the one who needs a shrink but do come often or I'll miss your twisted sense of humor

[Shaggathai]

I choose to be in denial about needing therapy for my killie-aholisim. I can control it. I bought a batch of blue gularis eggs yesterday, (even tho I haven't managed to hatch but a few of my own eggs), not because I have a fish addiction problem, but because they are SO PRETTY!

I have one lone A. striatum LEC 93/29 female, she's a survivor of the Great Tank Nuking. They started out as a group of 12+ fry. They were growing up wonderfully, the males were becoming absolutely incredible. Everybody got along, they loved the unheated tank, and watching them grow up made me think up new places to put tanks (I'll bet my computer CPU could hold a 2.5 gallon on top. Wouldn't need a heater either, could prolly put discus in the tank). They were near sexual maturity when the GTN happened. I plan to buy a pair or eggs or fry, but only because that lone female is so obviously lonely. Nothing to do with them being gorgeous fish, that'd be silly.

I think I'm going to have to go with the omg australe plan, I saw that female snarf up an egg again this morning. They got fresh bbs for dinner last night, so she wasn't hungry, and there's still a few bbs puttering around in the tank. Back when I separated and fed up the pairs, then put them back together, got a ton of eggs in short order, so I'm going to try that again but pull the parents instead of the eggs. It's a perfect plan in theory.

I'm keeping the bn's well fed so that hopefully they don't get a taste for eggs. I have the tanks set with the short side as the front, and the front of the tank is the feeding zone. I give them goodies that the killies would rather die than eat, so they have food 24/7. Plus, I rinsed them off really well before I put them in the killie tanks. I don't think they liked it tho, they squirmed a lot when I scrubbed them. But, I do think the shampooing did them good.

Yes, my real name really is Dawn. My username is a holdover from my mmorpg playing days. I found the word one late night (drinking?) following random web links, about 10 years ago, and went, "hey, I'll bet nobody has thought of using this as a name before!" I was right. It's quite unique, I'm very attached to it, plus the name amuses me. Sadly, I'm easily amused.

Therapy, moi? The money for that can be used for fish that look like gems, so I don't think so!!!

[RonWill]

Dawn,
You mentioned, "working on setting up a small tank with dividers for different sized fry". Have a read and adapt ideas from "Hamburger Matten Filter & Styrene tank covers". A heater can be kept within the filter section and a rainbar to distribute water throughout the partitions. To keep fry from mingling, a finer layer of gravel can be used over the UGF but still, I'd suggest not having fry from the same genus/different populations in the same setup. Not too bad if the females are markedly distinguishable.

For the striatum, get at least sexable pairs so the current female is not tempted into bullying them and might still have a chance to spawn with new males. Raising a group from eggs will take too long.

[BTW, I almost deleted your account because I associated "shaggathai" with shagging in the drive-in or Austin Powers's "The spy who shagged me"!! It's a case of one Britney too many! ]

[Shaggathai]

Ronnie,

Thanks bunches for that link, that's great! I should be able to easily modify that into something that'll work and get around the concerns I had with dividing a tank like keeping the front sections warm, a little water circulation without spaces the fry will fit thru, etc, never would have thought of using an UGF for that.

And thanks for not deleting my account! It didn't occur to me right away when I came up with the name for playing Ultima Online years back, how it could sound. After some snickers, and such, and in gaming people usually shorten names to make typing faster, "hey Shag", "hiya Shag", etc, between those I finally got clued in lol.

[stickfly]

Good to hear that killie fry CAN survive in a natural tank.
I have a 20 gallon tank with 3 pairs of A. Australe ( Gold ) + 16 Corydoras Pygmaeus . There is a large ( 10 inch diameter ) ball of Java Moss + a selection of other plants.
Whilst doing a water change this afternoon I noticed a single fry swimming around just outside the moss. It's about 5mm in length. Don't know if it will survive , just have to hope it stays close to the moss for a while longer!!

Regards........... Gary.

[stickfly]

Well the fry has survived and is now about 1 centimetre in length & almost certainly a male. Would have preferred another female really but the good news is that another fry has appeared today, about 4mm in length. I think the large Java Moss ball is a life saver for the fry after hatching.

Regards............. Gary.

[whuntley]

I think the large Java Moss ball is a life saver for the fry after hatching.

You bet!

Let me count the ways....

1. Hiding place from older/larger siblings. Most killifish are predatory at some stage in life, and juveniles can be the worst.

2. Food source. If you avoid Amquel, Prime, or other such dechloraminators (they all kill micro-critters), the moss is host to lots of infusoria that are even better than bbs for first foods for most killies. A drop or two of Liquifry No. 1 on the wad of moss can cause a quick infusoria bloom. [A rice-grain sized piece of hard-boiled egg yolk works almost as well. Mash with water in a spoon to make a slurry. Never feed more than 2 drops at a time in small tanks.]

3. Water quality. The moss is a great ammonium sponge, if given a reasonable amount of light (still low, not bright). Ammonium (NH4+) turns to deadly ammonia (NH3) at higher pH (50X as much at 9 as at 7). Babies can tolerate no more that about 5 ppb of ammonia without permanent stunting due to gill damage. 10 ppb possibly kills outright. That is a long way below what any test kit can measure, BTW. Growing plants are a huge help.

Personally, I cannot raise babies with any reliability, without the wad of moss in their tank. I even add a small sprig to egg-hatching Petri dishes, for the quick first food and ammonia reduction it gives.

Wright