CO2 Injection/Diffusion

[Happy Camper]

A picture says a thousand words, post them

I'm not a plant Guru, I'm merely giving you pointers to stuff I have experienced in the past. Flourish sounds like it has everything in it, in this case I would say that you've perhaps been dosing too little. If you dose your tank so that the Nitrate level is close to 10ppm then you should be good to grow plants.

I'll wait to see the pics before making anymore comments in case I'm giving you the wrong advice.

[SQUEAK]

Cameron,

I will divide this into two posts, so it is easy to know what is in what tank. The first post will contain my success tank. It is a 5.5 gallon tank, with 10 watt fluorescent bulb, with no algae problems to speak of. The air line you see running down is how I diffuse CO2 into this tank (it gets trapped underneath the rock.

Inhabitants: 2 ramshorns snails.

[SQUEAK]

Next tank:

10 gallon tank, has blue-green algae in it. 2 fundulopanchax sjoestedi, male and a female. I made a mistake earlier - there are 2 adult ramshorns in there, and I am constantly picking out the babies. As you can see, the planting is far more sparse, and consists heavily of stem plants (unfortunately), giving it a somewhat weedy look. The suction cup/green thing on the front of the tank is how I currently diffuse CO2 into this tank. You may also note some plants at the top. Those are actually stem plants (rotala sp) that have come loose. I took a bunch of cuttings recently from my 5.5 gallon tank and planted them, but they keep floating up! I haven't had a chance to re-plant them yet.

[SQUEAK]

Things to see:

5.5 gallon tank: there is a big clump of java moss on the right hand side - that is not the clump I killed . However, it has a small infection of blue-green algae to it, and I didn't want to move it over (although I suppose since I already have it...). That's the only thing in there that does have the algae. The photos here really don't do justice to the 5.5 gallon tank, the depth perception has been lost, which gives it a very 2-D view, and looks more crowded than it actually is.

In the 10 gallon tank, if you look on the right hand side, you'll really see the blue green algae (you'll probably notice that this tank does really look more barren then the other tank... design is not my forte).

Cameron, you may know the answer to this. Between solid minerals such as plant tabs (iron tabs and the like), and liquid formulas (like Flourish Excel), is there a preferred one to use? I was never very clear if there was any particular difference between them, other than the ingredients. Sorry for picking your brain clean here!

[Happy Camper]

Hi Peter

Nice tanks

I stand by my previous advice, do a black out, add more nutrients and see what happens. As I said before I'm not sure how well the Killies will handle the blackout so you may want to move them to your 5 gallon, they should be ok in there for only 3 days. I would drip them before moving them to the other setup just in case. I certainly would not want you to lose any fish during this process so please use your own discretion. The blackout method works like a charm, you can read various folks comments about it all over the net, just google 'cyano' and 'blackout' for many hits.

Regards
Cam

[SQUEAK]

Cameron,

Thank you, it is much appreciated . I'm trying to lose the rather 'weedy' looking aspect of the 10 gallon tank, however I try not to change the 5.5 gallon tank, as it does well for some reason. Tank design is a very odd thing - if I get it right, I get it right by chance .

This weekend, I will try doing that blackout. I have a three day weekend coming up from university (just need to make it until 7PM tonight when classes finish!), and I can start getting a blackout ready.

[Happy Camper]

The only difference I can see from your descriptions about running the 2 tanks is that one (the 10 gallon) seems to be getting more attention from you than the 5 gallon. Are you always 'fiddling' with the 10 gallon, trying to make it perfect? Stop that The plants will be better adjusted if you leave them to grow in accordance to the tanks own metabolism, chopping and changing conditions is not good for plants, I know this all too well

Once you've done the blackout and corrected conditions, plant the plants and leave the setup alone, the plants will grow just fine with little intervention from yourself. Oh, and don't forget to say 'hello you beautiful plants' every time you walk past the tank. Plants always enjoy a good chat, makes them feel at home :P

I'd like to know how things work out for you so please post an update when the process is over.

Good luck

[SQUEAK]

The top two activities of an engineer: fiddling with anything and everything, and staying up all night doing work. I don't really do much to the plants but clean them off in the 10 gallon tank (rub the leaves to get the slime off), and occasionally to add new plants. I really shouldn't fiddle so much with that tank . I will update this when I have blacked out the tank, and waited a little while for the tank to recover from it.

Back to work... class starts in two hours for me, I think I need a few 36 hour days to get everything done :P

[Desmond]

Thanks Loh K L for the picture on the diffuser. But I am now tempted to get a pressurized CO2 since it will do good on my plants!

[chicknb]

Peter, here is my advice based on my (short) experience with plants.

You may use the power head to diffuse the CO2, I had that set-up a while ago with very good results. If you have an external filter, you may inject the CO2 to the inlet and have good results. I have it connected to my canister filter (Eden 501, equivalent to the Zoo Med Turtle Clean 501) in my 20 gal planted tank and so far I get very good results (most plants are pearling, including my Anubias nana) so if you have one I would suggest doing it that way, even if it is a power filter (like an Aquaclear) you may do it (I've also done it in the past).

About the flourish, when I started using it I experienced some algae problems and had to reduce the dose. Now I dose weekly 4 mL of flourish, 1 planttab, 15 mL of peat extract, 7 mL of iron and trace elements, 1 mL of zeatins (plant hormones) and keep the pH at 6.6-6.8 with the CO2. I have flourite as substrate and only have some spot algae that gives the driftwood a nice look. I also keep an army of ramshorn and apple snails, 4 otocinclus and a bunch of cherry shrimp. I know that every aquarium is different but I just want to share my experience.

Regards,

Tony

[SQUEAK]

Hi Tony,

I could swear I've seen that exact picture of (what I believe) is A. Mentos I've seen somewhere. Do you ever reside on petfish.net? Bit off topic, but I'm curious.

This 10 gallon tank is run by a sponge filter, so no luck with attaching it to the intake of this filter. However, that might work well for my 20 gallon tank! that is run with a hang on the back filter - for injecting the CO2, do you simply run the CO2 into the intake of the impeller, so that the bubbles hit the impeller blades?

Thank you for the listing of what you use; hard numbers like this are useful for figuring out what works for others

[chicknb]

Yes, you are right, I posted that picture on the petfish forum (as well as some others). It's my former Austrolebias alexandri Ceibas male.

About the CO2, yes, you just run a CO2 line to the intake of the filter and the impeller breaks the bubbles, it may make some noise but nothing really bad. At least it worked for me and it is still working for my brother in law (I gave him that 10 gal tank and filter). I will try to post a picture of my current setup so you may see how plants are growing. Meanwhile, I leave you this F. gardneri Akure picture. It does not show really the blue color it has because it depends on how the light strikes him. Anyway, I hope you like it.

Regards,

Tony

[SQUEAK]

Tony & all,

I certainly like the picture Tony - you have some excellent photography skills. Any time I even think about photographing my killifish, they immediately see me, and start ramming into the side of the tank wanting food (and in the case of anyone else being around the tank... well, they still want food).

As of 2/17/07, I've blacked out the tank. Black trash bag around the entire tank, with a blanket covering it - best I can do (I actually only own one blanket). The killifish have been moved into the 5 gallon tank, and seem to be adjusting just fine. I'll remove that blackout in 3-4 days, depending how busy I get. I'm going to be driving a lot this week, have to go home & later go for an interview . Have a great weekend all, and try not to do anything productive - it's bad for you.

[chicknb]

Peter, I don't have excellent photography skills, I just have enough patience to take dozens of pictures and select a decent one. It's not a joke, when I have time and patience, I take the camera (Nikon Coolpix L1) and try to take some decent shots of my shrimp, apple snails, and killis but very often they move while taking the picture. My opinion is to get a confortable chair and spend some time taking photos trying to understand the camera. By the way, my old pentax (forgot the model, maybe it was a Revio 30 or something) was much better to get good close-ups of my fish and it had manual focus control (which this Nikon lacks).

I hope you succeed against the algae.

Regards,

Tony

[ed seeley]

Hi guys,
I hope a few things I have learnt in my PT battles with Cyanobacteria (Blue green 'Algae', or BGA) will help. BGA will grow very well with low nutrients or higher ones, but phosphate isn't a cause. A lack of Nitrate will cause it though. However it has been seen by loads of people, myself included, that poor circulation will encourage it, hence why it's probably growing in the middle of your Java Moss. The only problem is your killis might not appreciate the faster flow!

Trying to add extra CO2 efficiently will help by boosting the plant growth. The problem is air powered foam filters and HOBs are two of the worst filters for outgassing CO2 from the water. You will have to a lot more to compensate. This is because they break the surface film and encourage gaseous exchange.

You CAN use good quality ceramic diffusers with DIY CO2, but you MUST make sure all your connections are very secure, otherwise BANG! Personally I'd stick to a ladder or spiral or use the power diffuser with a powerhead. Hagen do a good ladder that fits flat against the glass.

After your blackout I'd give the tank a really good clean and syphon out any debris or BGA that you see and the minute any more starts syphon it out. If you can up your flow rates and reduce the amount of surface disturbance (bit of a contradiction there, but if you lower the outlet you can do this).

BTW I use a CO2 reactor that's fitted to the return pipe of my external filter as it's one less thing in the tank and it takes no maintenance and does a very efficient job.

Hope some of this too long post helps!

[SQUEAK]

Ed,

Thank you for the tips. I'm still gleaning information from anything (it's all too much!). I did notice something for anyone who might be interested: Seachem Flourish states "Flourish does not contain nitrates or phosphates which can contribute to algae proliferation." With the low bioload that I do have, would it then make sense to supplement a nitrate source into the tank?

Also, after removing the covering, I found something that I didn't expect. The water had very thin (literally, almost too thin to notice) strands of green 'something', about a couple centimeters long. These were just floating free in the water, and I suspect that it would be the BGA that is dying off. Massive water change to try and get as much of it out, and I actually decided to try a second round of the blackout for another couple days, just to try and get the remaining BGA that appeared to have survived. The good news is that this appears to be a very successful method, and may save me a lot of headache . Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread.

As for filtration methods, I'm really kind of stuck on what to do about that. Outgassing may just be a problem I will have. I don't know another good way that I can filter the water, without breaking the surface. However, I do have a powerhead; perhaps a cheap sponge attached to the intake of that would suffice? A lowered powerhead would not break the surface. A canister filter is, unfortunately, completely out of the question; I just don't have the space for a filter that size (I live in a 10'x15' room with 3 tanks - I'm always short on space).

I'm going to skip on using those ceramic diffusers. If something went bang, my apartment manager would be able to charge me so much in damages it would be ridiculous.

[ed seeley]

A lot of guys into PTs do regularly dose both Nitrates and Phosphates, but you need to couple it with high light, pressurised CO2 (or high DIY CO2) and 50% water changes so the nutrients don't build up.
Personally I think once you've given everything a good clean after your black out and upped the flow using the powerhead everything will settle down.
Get a ladder for your CO2, there's no back pressure generated by them at all, or just bubble the CO2 into your powerhead. The impellor will mash the bubbles up and blast them around the tank.
You can still use filters that disturb the water's surface, just bear in mind you may need to add more CO2 to compensate, maybe an extra bottle?

[FC]

With the low bioload that I do have, would it then make sense to supplement a nitrate source into the tank?

In my opinion, keeping the water column in balance is the key to keep the algae away. My tank has been algae free many years and I can maintain that even without regular water change.

There are 3 ways to dose the water column:
1) dose directly to the water - for tank which contain rootless plants only
2) dose by injecting fertilizer into the gravel - for tank with rooted plants only
3) dose by both the above ways - for tank with both rootless and rooted plants.

Dosage depends on the light intensity:
1) Dose once a week for low to medium light (less than 0.8 watts per litre)
2) Dose twice a week for high light

If you do not want to mess with powders, try getting the Hagen NPK fertiliser (made in Canada), it is available here in Singapore and should also be in America. It is priced reasonably and has proper/balanced proportion of the NPK. See below thread:
http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/pro...01076850020101

[SQUEAK]

Freddy,

I'm a bit unclear on one part. You mention injecting straight into the substrate (for absorbtion through a root system I would assume). Are you referring to using a substance that dissolves very slowly into the water (plant tabs, etc), or do you mean to inject a liquid solution directly into the substrate, using something like a syringe?

[FC]

Hi Peter,
Yes, I mean inject a liquid solution directly into the substrate, using a syringe. This will benifit the rooted plants directly. This is especially helpful for old setup where the base fertiliser has depleted.