Minor rant: eggs shipped in peat. Or, is it just me?

[retro_gk]

Over the years, I've received eggs of several species shipped in water or on mops (Lamprichthys, Procatopus, Plataplocheilus, Aphyosemion, Cryptaphyosemion, Aplocheilus, Rivulus etc) where I've had an 80% or better hatch rate. In every single case. I can't think of an instance where I've had a lousy hatch rate with those eggs.

Over the same period, I've received eggs of many species shipped in peat (Epiplatys, Simpsonichthys, Megalebias) with a grand hatch total of 3 fry!!! Out of all the bags of eggs I've received.

It is quite possible I'm a lousy aquarist, incapable of following simple instructions. It is also possible I just have lousy luck. But, just 3 fry out of possible hundreds is just ridiculous to me. What annoys me even more is my apparent inability to spot eggs in the peat (and I have better than 20/20 vision, according to an optometrist). My usual MO is to check the peat on receipt with a flashlight, observe no eggs, store the eggs+peat till the date listed on the bag, wet them, re-dry and store for another month, wet again, then examine the peat under a high intensity light. Always the same result; no eggs!

I can draw 2 conclusions from the above; eithere there were no eggs in the peat to begin with or they disintegrateed somewhere along the way.

There has to be a better way of doing this.

[stoker]

Hi Ruhul

Not much luck there, don`t worry it also happens with me and I have kept them for 30 years.

Make sure when you inspect the peat that you can see eggs that are ready to hatch they will look like a small golden ball, that is the eye of the fry , if you see this add water and stand back.
Don`t use a strong lite to check the eggs overheats them and they will NOT hatch.
I use a florescent tube over ground glass remember that the eggs are small about 1-2 mm in dia so are not easy to see in the peat they go dark just after spawning, and as they develope will show the eye.
It`s not easy till you have a good bag of eggs and can watch the development.
Find out the drying time and temp keep the eggs dark.
See you on the other forum

Mike

[mk_ultra]

Man, I hope the ones I send you hatch.

Have you tried using a magnifying glass, or even better a magnifying glass with light attachment. I use a mag glass and a small magnum flashlight to spot eggs in peat. Seems to work well. I also spread the peat out on white paper towel to provide some contrast.

[RonWill]

Rahul, if I had to do it all over again, I'd have to insist that the seller ships non-annual eggs in breather bags because I have the same rotten luck. A couple strand of yarn will separate the eggs lest some go bad. I'm convinced with breathers when I had a dozen Chrom BIT Ijebu Ode hatched enroute to SG. Damned if they were in peat.

Fundulopanchax and switch-spawners' eggs will do ok with damp mop in regular poly bags.

Am agreeable with annual species shipped in peat but again, the only time I can spot them is when using head loupe or under a dissecting scope.

[TyroneGenade]

I've generally always had poor luck with non-annual eggs being shipped to me. But, my best shipments of non-annuals have been in peat. This includes: Aph. elberti, Chrom. bivittatum, Epiplatys annulatus, Aph. pyrophore Kimono Yellow, Fp. oerseri, Chrom. bitaeniatum, sp. 4, splendopleure Dizangue.

The single biggest factor is the way the peat is shipped. Peat, pressed into a plastic bag and then shoved un protected into an envelop does not work. The package needs to be padded, and the peat must not be tightly packed. It must remain fluffy.

The single biggest factor with annual eggs is the cleanness of the peat. If you receive peat and you can see hundreds of thousands of brine shrimp egg cysts then this is a good indication the peat is polluted and you will get very few good eggs out.

Once the peat has been wet and exposed to oxygen it begins to decompose. Wet palm peat is a killer. The reason why Jiffy and Canadian peat works so well is because it is already well decomposed and doesn't pollute the peat mix killing the eggs.

There are a lot of fly by night operations selling eggs in small parcels of peat etc... This is a disaster. You need at least 3 table spoons of peat per packet if you want any eggs to make it to their destination alive. A large peat volume makes for a more stable and more comfortably packed ride for the eggs. They can better tolerate hard knocks (crushing blows) and temperature changes.

tt4n

[retro_gk]

Thanks for the comments, all.

The high intensity light mentioned in the OP is attached to a dissecting microscope I don't mind the expense involved because killie eggs are relatively cheap. I just wish I could get some fry!!

Tyrone makes some very good points about the consistency of the peat and organic matter within. I think I've had problems with both.

On a related note, a friend who purchased a weeks' spawn of S. flammeus got over a hundred fry on the first wetting. Life's not fair!

mk_ultra, your eggs better hatch!!

[Scott_sg]

My random thoughts when I should have been asleep hours ago..

For me bringing in Nothobranchius and Simpsonichthys is ok, from my records it works out as 2in 3 succesful.

For non annuals, it is a nightmare, about 1 in 4 successes.

The annual eggs are much tougher.

I think most killi people are honest, with killifish at least but once it goes in the post it really comes down to luck.

The non annuals are a problem, on mops they often hatch on route, and I also have an idea the reduced pressure is messing things up. Some of the peat bags when i get them look like they are vacum sealed.

I have just done an experiment with a friend and Scriptaphyosemion geryi (without checking the spelling). After the usual bad results, we tried shipping the eggs as usual in peat, but then inserting it into a plastic drink bottle and sealing it. That way the eggs on peat shouldnt hatch for the longer incubating species and the pressure should remain constant. There should still be sufficient air in there for 7-10 days.

Well that is the theory...

I only recieved them today but so far it looks ok. Then again until i see adult fish it is all uncertain.

I am also in the camp that more peat is better, for shipping i also think the peat should be damper. My reasoning for this is that the extra water provides greater thermal mass/stability. And it also helps in the absorption of radiation as the mail goes through all the scanners and things.

Thats my reasoning anyway, but for all eggs I definitely do better when there is more peat.And like Tyrone says.. peat is not peat.

Also some eggs definitely seem to ship better than others, I seem to have done ok with Fundulopanchax nigerianus in the past.

And lastly, I will have a tantrum. What is is with the trend of selling 12 eggs? 12 eggs might work if you are buying chicken eggs..but for non annuals it is crazy. And my own thought is if the breeder can only get 12 eggs then they should keep some of the eggs to build up their own stock until they can produce sensible quantities of eggs.

And lastly lastly, it always pays to buy from people you know, in most cases they will try and help with getting you more eggs. And if they are your friend you can harass them to try wacky experiments like my last ones. Also they will normally throw in some extras and suprises for you.

The most important lesson in the Killifish world is networking

[stormhawk]

Let's see. I've had dismal luck with eggs shipped in peat too, even if they're annuals like Simpsonichthys.

So far eggs coming from France have been decent in hatch rates, but a few packs I received from Argentina were pretty dry, so simply said, no eggs whatsoever. They probably dried up in transit..

[stoker]

Hi Rahul,

Just a few thoughts on eggs and peat , I have had Whitei and Longipinnis both spawn on bottom mops and hatched them out . If you can maybe get someone over in your part of the world to spawn them into mops and at least you can see the eggs and watch the development. Both should hatch out about 4 weeks shorter that the book says. Sorry can`t help you out at the moment on fish-house MK5 construction and don`t have anything.
Dave Wood and I are thinking about trying to water incubate them .
Anyone any thoughts on this STUPID??? idea.

Mike at the moment

[retro_gk]

Lol Mike, I just told a friend who has some S. zonatus to try spawning them on sinking mops.

[stoker]

Hi Rahul,
Never tried them so will be interested on what the results are.

Mike

[stoker]

Hi Rahul,

This is some info I had via e-mail.

I know that whitei (almost a Simpsonichthys ) and bokermanni will both mop
spawn, and also that almost all SA annuals will water incubate. (see Dan
Katz's article... if it has been published !!)
With zonatus, I'd try to spawn them on coir fibre first, before trying
ordinary mops.
My thoughts on water incubation would be high temp (78 F +) for probably
6-10 weeks, but this is purely an informed guess. (Water incubation is
normally quicker than "dry" incubation.)

MIKE
MIKE

[scoboyh]

HI all,
I have read this thread with interest - I also tend to buy and sometimes sell eggs as its one of the best ways of obtaining stock.
The reply by Scott Douglass mentions:-

And lastly, I will have a tantrum. What is is with the trend of selling 12 eggs? 12 eggs might work if you are buying chicken eggs..but for non annuals it is crazy. And my own thought is if the breeder can only get 12 eggs then they should keep some of the eggs to build up their own stock until they can produce sensible quantities of eggs.

I have usually included extra eggs to cover any transit loses without "customer" hassle. However, its not always the hassle you expect - there are MANY "newbies" who have very little space and only want a pair or two fully grown. This even includes myself - my tanks are small and I do not want a lot of stunted fish, just a pair or two to breed.
Some of the complaints I have had are that, having got 18+ eggs from me, someone is furious to discover they are looking after 28 fry!
What the heck are they expected to do with so many is often the response, honestly they really blame the breeder hard for that one.
If you are looking for more than 12 eggs (as being sold) why not just ask if a second set is available - they will usually not even charge any extra postage?

best regards
Laurie

P.S. I fully agree - the more peat the better chance of success. Likewise, if you believe the breeder is a good one DO NOT search for eggs, you will just disturb them causing fatalities by being careless. Just ask the breeder for a date when to wet them.
P.P.S. I send on a damp mop so you can see the eggs clearly but this only seems to work if the posting is quick - if transit is expected to be long I peat them.

[Scott_sg]

Laurie, the reason I was having a tantrum about 12 eggs is that when they are shipped long distances eg to Singapore, is that the percentage of losses in transit climbs greatly with each day. If they are just posted a day or two away then no problem.

Getting non annuals here is a major problem though, even when I have bought 30+ eggs I have ended up with nothing. Actually I have ended up with nothing much more often. That has also extended to express mail heat packs etc

If I start wanting to buy extra bags of eggs, providing they are available then say a typical aquabid price of $20 for 12, then to give a fair chance x 3 takes it to 60US then another 30 for express mail. And I am roughly $100 out. And still with a poor chance of getting anything. I dont mind paying money if I think it is worth it, i dont even mind taking a gamble, but I am not into just throwing money away. When it starts getting up to 100 for a bag of eggs i might as well look at importing live fish.

Also even the nice guys start getting catty when money is involved. So 3 bags of 12 eggs makes more money than 1 bag of 36 eggs.

Just my thoughts

Scott.

[stoker]

[quote And lastly, I will have a tantrum. What is is with the trend of selling 12 eggs? 12 eggs might work if you are buying chicken eggs..but for non annuals it is crazy. And my own thought is if the breeder can only get 12 eggs then they should keep some of the eggs to build up their own stock until they can produce sensible quantities of eggs.[/quote]

Hi Both and welcome Laurie,
I must admit that I agree with you both , but surely at the end of the day it`s the GREEN FOLDING STUFF that the 12 egg sellers are after, as you say why not use these eggs to increase their stock or is it just the money that counts ?? and in that way there may be a increase in the killifish in the hobby. After all that`s what it is a HOBBY that we are all interested in and though we may make a few bob out of it by selling extra stock, surely it`s the interest in killies that count and trying to help fellow "NUTS"
Thats my rant

Mike

[scoboyh]

Hi Mike,
I agree it is the green folding stuff thats wanted by them mate but - I have sold 12 eggs of a hard to breed species just to further it in the hobby, not really to make money.
When I buy, it very often quotes 50 or several hundred eggs, sometimes a weeks spawning - funnily enough I often wish there were 12 eggs on arrival.
When I sell on eggs my aim is not to be unrealistic so I quote a number and add more - that way someone can actually expect at least the number I have quoted - this varies from species to species depending on how they are breeding. I know that most killi people are decent and honest however there are a lot of "get rich quick" schemes and I think some people percieve the killi eggs that way (no chance - it only ever helps with the feed bill). I also think some "newbies" regard the sight of eggs as success - unfortunately they do not realise that after 2 days a lot will be white and so just post them out.
Worst of the lot, and they shall remain unnamed, is the long term guys who actually assume the fish has bred and just post out peat - when challenged that there were no eggs they often admit, they did not look! Thats the state of the hobby I am afraid, but on the other side of the coin - I find people who pay the lowest price to be the biggest complainers?
They always pay little (catch a bargain) then moan there was no eggs - they have the mistaken belief that I post out breeding mops and not transit ones i.e. I counted the fertile eggs out onto a damp small mop. It beggars belief that they are such timewasters, expecting a second set of eggs posted out free of charge (remember they got them at a bargain price to start with!). I usually give them a short answer (unlike people who seem genuine - who I try to help and be fair with, especially newbies) and they then say "oh right - I will look at the mop again, must have missed them (once it is explained the eggs are place individually on the mop). Hope this clears up any misunderstanding as I hate throwing out good eggs - I would sooner pass them on for a pound or two or give them free to a mate.
best regards
Laurie
P.S. You are right Mike, it is only a hobby - but it often runs on trust and boy is that often abused (or tried to be!)

[stoker]

Hi Laurie,

Yes I agree about the chancers and it wasn`t mend to be a dig about the 12 eggers I know as well as you that if it`s rare try and spread it about , and if the worst happens at least you may have a chance of getting them back.
I did much the same years ago with Script. Bertholdi ,in those days it was rolloffia, think that I can get hold of them again , getting teeth from a hen is easy conpared to that.
Will be back to you later in the year when I have fish-house MK5 finished.

Mike

[stoker]

Hi Laurie,

Very funny but my sjo`s didn`t come out of a tree , don`t know about Dave

Mike

[nonamethefish]

I think a lot of it depends on who. I think I've dealt with to very good people. Bob Morenski for Nothos for one and Doug Ebeling for nigripinnis. In both cases I could find eggs in the bag. nigripinnis eggs are sticky so they were colored brown and very tough to spot. But in all cases I got some fry that hatched, and if my beginner skills gave me luck I got a lot.