Posting eggs to Singapore & other Countries

**scoboyh** · 14th Mar 2007, 17:42

Hi all,
in the past I have sold some eggs on ebay and found that, as I live in the UK, posting eggs give good results on damp "mops". These are small mops I use just for transit of the eggs within the UK. If I send to other countries, it seems that they are ok if its a short journey but give poorer results if longer than 3 or 4 days so I revert to using damp peat. I have some sjo's now starting to lay more fertile eggs and I intend to sell them on Aquabid etc but wonder:-
Would they be ok sending to Singapore or does the temperature cause too many eggs to turn white? I know this has been raised before with people not willing to buy 12 eggs or so, but if they are in damp peat and a polystyrene "box" do you think they would last the journey?
best regards
Laurie

**RonWill** · 16th Mar 2007, 19:46

Hi Laurie,
Although I'm taking a hiatus from the hobby, I'm still willing to partake in an experiment to test shipping non-annual eggs and please don't misconstrue my intentions. I've never asked for anything for free.

For this experiment, I'd like to suggest the following methods;
1. Eggs in breather bags.
2. Eggs in damp peat.
3. Eggs in mop.

All eggs need to be verified viable before packing and to prevent temperature extremes, pack the 3 bags in a polyfoam box and have it shipped via Express. (Line the box with aluminium foil if you're doubtful of eggs being radiated at the airport)

I don't know how prolific your SJOs are but 10 eggs using each method, should suffice for us to consolidate some results. If you don't have access to breather bags, I can send you some.

Meanwhile, PM me the amount you'd like for the 30 eggs + shipping, and I'll process the payment in Sterling Pound. How does that sound to you? Still game?

**scoboyh** · 17th Mar 2007, 02:57

Hi Ronnie,
the idea sounds feasable but I am a bit concerned using sjo eggs as the experiment. If you would like to cover postage cost only I can try this with a gardneri type and you can see which would be the best method for getting eggs from. I have breather bags ok but have experienced in the past an egg going infertile during transit and seeming to spoil the rest, would this be better with an acriflavine/meth blue mix?
I am not sure which World Zone you are in for posting but will ask at the post office and get a weight on the package for pricing.
As already stated I will send gardneri eggs without cost - they are fairly prolific however if you do want sjo's specifically let me know and I can look at a reasonable price on the eggs - should be able to get 30 fertile ones.
With the gardneri I wait 4 days to see if fertile, then post at the next convenient day i.e. not just before the weekend.
With sjo's I collect every week so they are up to a week old, then I wait a further week before deciding they are fertile - due to the fact that mine run at about 2 - 3% fertile! Breaks your heart to see so many turn white but thats sjo's.
Post a reply letting me know which you would prefer and we can take it from there but private message me your address for posting to. If it works ok or reasonably we can always run some other species in the summer, although I am cutting back on species just now due to job requirements. I will however be concentrating on various sjo types - probably a good sending species due to the longer than Aphyosemion incubation time. At the moment the sjo eggs I have are niger delta type - I have a photo but can't find how to post it yet! Will try later to get it on!
best regards
Laurie

**scoboyh** · 17th Mar 2007, 03:19

Hi,
didn't manage to post the photo but got one onto your gallery - its on page 11 - shows the breeder male for the sjo niger delta. Have a look and let me know if there are sjo's like it in Singapore.
best regards
Laurie

**RonWill** · 17th Mar 2007, 05:31

Hi Laurie,
It feels darn nice to meet a good sport but I'm probably missing something; are you from the UK or Scotland? Is Euro dollar the 'common' trading currency or the GBP?

For the GAR, we currently have two established populations; Lafia and Lokoja. The N'sukka remains in unknown status but for sure we've lost the Baissa, P82, Basua and a few more.

With most killies, I don't pick eggs but harvest and incubate the entire mop. My usual routine was to do a quick visual for eggs, rinse briefly in fresh tap water, then hang and drip dry the mop (until it no longer drips, not bone dry). Stuff that in a regular poly bag, fluff it up and secure with rubber bands until the bag feels like a loose ball. Ambient temp in Singapore vary between 26~32°C and GAR eggs are incubated for about 3 weeks in the dark.

Comes hatching day, I'll half-fill the bag with tap water, blow smoke into it, shake it up and come back to it about 15 minutes later. By then, my raising container with pre-conditioned water (plus infusoria and some daphnia) is ready to receive the fry. Almost as easy as guppies.

The SJOs on the other hand, stumped many hobbyists, including myself. Most couldn't get past the fry stage and I recall a zero-hatch from 60 eggs from a Canadian seller. Packed in plastic petri dishes on a wee bit of peat that arrived super bone dry.

Best I did with SJOs was this bugger from a skewed ratio group. Eggs are, as you have observed, poorly viable. I resorted to soaking the mop in thick acri/mb mix and diluting the stain with daily change of incubation water for a week, then damp-incubate as described above for another 3~4wks, checking periodically for well eyed-up eggs.

New SJO hatchlings can be unpredictable. Apparantly healthy and robust initially but not surprising to see nothing after a while. I'm not new to breeding and cannot explain this occurrence.

If you have GAR eggs (other than Lafia, N'sukka or Lokoja), I'm ok but very much prefer to attempt the SJO again. If shipped in breathers, tinge transport water with acri/mb and include a few strands of yarn to prevent eggs from sticking together. I've provided shipping address details as per PM and we'll talk about other Aphyosemion over summer, if it doesn't get overly hot (another egg killer!)

BTW, excuse the lenghty post... I've not been talking killies for a while and missed doing so, obviously.

**scoboyh** · 27th Mar 2007, 16:37

Hi Ronnie,
check how they turn up and dry incubate them for best results. They may eye up during transit, the ones a week older are showing embryos. I expect they will fully eye up a week later BUT I have had premature hatching on them - the fry have a huge belly and die after a short time. They need to be kept dry for a further week or so - try hatching just one egg and seeing how big the belly is before wetting the rest.
Hope you get a good hatch!
best regards
Laurie

**RonWill** · 28th Mar 2007, 00:05

Laurie,
Have been slow responding to PMs but I gather that all the eggs are shipped in moist peat?

Will check for eyed-ups upon arrival and feedback accordingly. Maybe some pics as well, if I still have the macro setup on loan.

All,
For the local boys following the thread, SJOs eggs have been tricky, perhaps from our lack of experience. Worth a try since mature specimens are quite a sight to behold.

If this batch works out ok, I'd probably be looking at other SJO populations. FWIW, I've gotten two friends involved with fry raising and hopefully, that will spread out the risks somewhat.

**scoboyh** · 28th Mar 2007, 01:11

Hi Ronnie,
no the eggs have been shipped as discussed. 10 in damp peat, 10 on a damp mop and the last 10 in a meth blue/acrifavin weak mix with wool strands ( a small mop) to help keep them apart. The box is 40mm polystyrene so should get them through any heat over there. Let me know how they turn up and if all is ok we can try others later in the summer.
best regards
Laurie

**RonWill** · 3rd Apr 2007, 02:22

Hi Laurie,
The package arrived this afternoon in good shape and I just checked on eggs with a head-loupe. A very brief summary for now since I'm at work (graveyard shift);

Damp peat - found 6 good eggs. Others may be hidden amongst peat but can't find them (now I remember why I'm a non-annual person!!)

Wool strand -9 good eggs, some with embryol development + 1 bad.

Breather - 9 deeply stained eggs + 1 flat (pinched in fold, I think, and discarded). Will let acri/mb stain dilute to verify viable eggs.

Some minor leakage observed. I noticed that no matter how well breather bags are tied, it always exhibit some leakage. Best result so far is to use a heat-sealer.

Can you recall the collection dates? It'll help me better estimate their incubation times. Crossing my fingers and hope to post positive updates soon.

One more thing... I can't find the heat pack!!

**scoboyh** · 4th Apr 2007, 02:52

Hi Ronnie,
hope the other eggs are hidden in the peat but even if they have disintegrated it looks like most methods have worked pretty well. Let me know which you would prefer for future postings but if the transit mop is that good I would stick with that.
The heat before sending rose here so I did not use a heatpack for fear of cooking the eggs, had it been cold I would have had to use it. Hope the ones in solution are viable but would think they will be. I don't have the laid date at this house but will email it if you wish. Personally I would just dry incubate from there and allow them to eye up fully then wait one more week before trying them. They hatch premature if wet too early and just die - better to look at the first hatched and gauge if the belly is large or shows sign of a yolk sac. (If so wait another 1-2 weeks).
Glad it looks like a good result ( 2 DOA and 4 missing out of 30) considering the journey. I trust this makes it look like someone genuine selling 12 eggs of any rare species would now be considered a worthwhile prospect?
I have a heat sealer Ronnie but its not a good one and prefer to tie the bags - I find the reason for water loss is due to seepage through the bag than from the knot.
best regards
Laurie
P.S. If you wish any more of this type or Fp.Sjo Loe please let me know!

**RonWill** · 9th Apr 2007, 23:42

Hi Laurie,
I have distributed the eggs to two other hobbyists; Gan, aka Turaco, has the bag of damp peat and since he has prior experience with Aphyolebias, peat incubation should be familiar.

Vincent has collected the damp-mop bag and will update new observations. He's a proficient betta breeder and is presently my back-up for Simp stellatus, S. carlettoi and a few populations of Chromaphyosemion.

The breather-bagged eggs is under my care, receiving daily tap water changes and the methylene/acriflavin stain is almost cleared. These eggs are in a glass container, sitting in the grow-out tank. The mop is still there to keep the eggs apart.

Embryol development is obvious and hatching shouldn't be too far away. A few days from now, the water changes will be from the grow-out tank, to minimize parameter shocks.

According to Gan, he spotted 6 eggs as well but hopefully, that is not the case. Both hobbyists will be following this thread, to know how you do it when the eggs are eyed-up.

I believe we're off on a decent start and planning to garner some local interest for the SJO Loe. Let me know when is a good time to ship again.

**scoboyh** · 10th Apr 2007, 01:10

Hi Ronnie,
glad the others are now showing embryos but instead of water incubating I would dry incubate these from now. If you leave them wet they may become reluctant to hatch or hatch prematurely. If you dry incubate them you can see when they are fully eyed up and wet a week later. If the first fry has a big belly just re-dry the rest and wait another 1-2 weeks. If you keep them wet this is what could happen to all of them and they usually die shortly afterwards.
I would not keep the others on the damp mop - put them on top of damp peat now until after they fully eye, then wait a week before wetting.
All going well you should get a good hatch but if they do become reluctant do your smoke in the bag routine after you wet them to force a hatch.
I have enough Loe to send some just now if you wish any, just let me know the numbers and if you want and more Niger Delta. We will keep the price the same, £0.50 per egg but let me know which method you wish the eggs to be packed in. This time since we know a good result is possible, I will include some extra eggs FOC.
best regards
Laurie

**turaco** · 10th Apr 2007, 23:44

I was away for a few days & upon checking the eggs, 1 disintegrated. I took out one well eyed-up egg to wet. here's how it looks like:

The rest of the eggs still don't look ready, just tiny dots for eyes. Seems like they are developing at different rate, the one that disintegrated must have over due. Will let you guys know if any fry hatch.

**RonWill** · 20th Apr 2007, 22:05

Gan,
The SJOs is proving to be just as difficult as before and I think the recent hot spell is not helping any. Don't feel bad about the eggs you've gotten. Sh*t happens.

Laurie,
The eggs in damp mop didn't fare well either. Vincent reported back that over the same period, eggs became opaque, then going bad. Only an empty mop left.

The water-incubated eggs has seven viable ones left, I think, and decided to let Vincent care for it since there're major changes in my work schedule. I'll let him shoot up further details.

Is there any chance we go with juvenile SJOs instead?

**scoboyh** · 21st Apr 2007, 03:34

Hi Ronnie,
you really have to dry incubate them on peat for a decent hatch and even then they usually have to be forced or they don't hatch. Looks like the heat has played a part in your lack of success - I can usually hatch a fair few, its raising them thats the big hassle they are so nasty to each other!
Sending adults may be the only way of establishing them in Singapore? I don't think juveniles would make the trip - even adults would probably have large % losses. All you do need is a trio over there for success as they should breed well. The biggest problem is time in transit and heat, not sure how we could work anything out Ronnie - perhaps later when I have some adults available we can discuss expected temps and juggle between too cold here and too hot over there?
Meanwhile wet the peat out when the eggs look ready - there could still be enough fry to get the species established.
best regards
Laurie
P.S. I would recommend drying out the water incubated ones and wetting/forcing when fully eyed + one week.

**vincent** · 27th Apr 2007, 00:06

Hi Laurie,

I have been call upon to look after or rather i took over from Ronnie the balance last 7 eggs.
I had follow what i would make out of your last post to dry the eggs for the pass week.
I have not wet as in hatch them yet as i can see the eye but in my pass experience with gardneri. I feel maybe i should wait for another week as i could not see the more distinct forming of the body and tail.
Of the the 7 eggs i think maybe one of them will not make it as i could see there some mold like growth on it we shall see in the next few days.

As some of you may know i not of a killie person more of a betta breeder.
So perhaps you may give a step by step instruction on how you do it ,as in how you collect ,store then wet them for hatching.
It will help to guide ,for me to pickup useful tips and change to fit in my
environment.
They are now in a glass bottle which is dip in a tank(guppy tank of 6'x4'x4' water level).
The eggs are place on top of peat in the bottle which is cap to keep in the moisture.
So i hope in the next few days it could show of the body, the tail egg shell melanin pigment for me to confidently to wet it.
The pass week the temp was 29c to 28c for the pass few day it was 28c to 26c as it was rain on and off this two days that is the water temp.
Well i shall stop here, so your go

rg

vincent mah

**scoboyh** · 27th Apr 2007, 03:06

Hi Vincent,
yes - it sounds like you are doing everything ok but the one with "mold" I would wet out in a low tds water for 24 hours - if it has not hatched by then put it in a very small bottle of water filled close to the neck. Blow into the water through a straw gently for 3 breaths then breath into the bottle and put the cap on. Stick it in your pocket and see if it hatches within 2 hours - if not redry it with the others. If it does hatch see if it has a large belly and if so do not feed it for a day. If not feed straight away and try to hatch the rest - even if you also have to use the forcing bottle. The temp there is very hot - I like to hatch and incubate a lot cooler than that so you may get weak fry because of this.
Fingers crossed you get them to hatch ok, if the first one does not hatch though leave the others until you can see the eyes clearly before trying. Do not worry if they do not hatch within 24 hours - they were just not ready dry them and wait another week. If they do not hatch within 24 hours of that though, force one in the bottle to see what like the belly is and judge the others from there.
best regards
Laurie
P.S. do not concern yourself with looking for tails - it will probably be folded and not clearly seen it is just the eye that counts.

**selena** · 2nd May 2007, 12:25

Wow!! Vincent, I'm impress...........and Gan, Ronnie couldn't have pick anybody better than you two.

Vincent, I'll reward you with 'Pokemon' stickers all over your scooter the next time i met up with u

*run n hide*

----------------------------------
Selena

**RonWill** · 2nd May 2007, 17:36

Selena,
Glad to have you back!!!

Despite some thinking that the killie-keepers have mostly died off, there are a few hobbyists working on the back-ups... and ready to kick up some dust when the time is right.

I for one, know that Gan, Vincent and a few others, intend to tag along on the next egg order but we'll have to see how this batch works out first. Personally, i'd still prefer receiving live fishes as it takes out alot of hit-and-miss, especially with eggs.

If I happen to be in your area, can I throw a bag of killies into your tanks??

(just to make sure you don't disappear from sight!)

There ought to be some updates coming from Vincent soon.