Hatching and rearing N. Guentherii from Eggs (new to forum)

[arvin555]

Hello Everyone, I'm new to the forum and to killifishes. Started with a Malaysian friend who provided me with 2 pairs of N. Rachovii and Some N. Guentherii Eggs. Last July. Then recently we (my brother is also into it) tried some Medaka.

N. Rachovii, one male died, but the remaining male and 2 females are already spawning We were able to spawn and hatch some Medakas (Jap. Rice fish) already too.

My problem is with the N. Guentherii eggs. Collection date was July 1, 2007. Wet on Sept. 1, 2007. Being excited, I tried to wet some eyed up eggs before Sept. 1, I got 2 hatches, but both died after 2 days, the rest I dried. I tried to rewet them 1 week after, and 2 again hatched, and again they died after 2 to 3 days. They seemed to stay on the bottom (belly sliders). All the time I have been researching about Killies, and found that the average Incubation for N. Guentherii is 3 to 6 months, but doing a search in this forum and the website, it seems you guys think it is okay to wet after 2 months.

Is it possible that the fry that hatched were all hatched early and thus became belly sliders?

My hatching system is to put very low aeration in the tank and I leave the hatched fry in the tank, until I am sure they are eating. I feed them with some greenwater and infusoria and some moina, also some microworms and bbs.

Next try, I will do as you website suggest, no aeration and transfer to grow out tank after 1 or 2 days.

Do anyone of you add anti ick/velvet medication in your hatching water? Just to be sure that velvet won't kill off the fry?

Looking forward to your reply.
TTFN
Arvin
Philippines

[timebomb]

Arvin,

I doubt the belly-sliding is due to the premature hatching of the eggs. When you wet the eggs, did you wet the peat too? It's important not to separate the eggs from the peat. For some reason, without the peat, the fry tend to be belly-sliders.

Do not pay too much attention to the incubation periods. It varies with the temperature in which the eggs are stored and the wetness of the peat. I would suggest you check for "eyes" periodically. When the eggs are eyed-up, look for the tails. I can never see them myself but I know that people with good eyesight can see the tails within the eggs. My maid can see them clearly, even without using a magnifying glass. When there are eyes and tails, it's "hatching time".

You mentioned using a tank to hatch the eggs. How large is the tank? We usually use small plastic containers to hatch the eggs. Besides a few other reasons, the simplest one is that with a small container, it's a lot easier to find the fry.

Loh K L

[arvin555]

Thanks for your reply Loh,

The eggs were in coconut coir and yes I actually didn't hatch them with it, I took the eggs from the coir and hatched them in a very small 1liter tank, with very gentle aeration. One thing though, because I had a feeling that the coir might still have some eggs, I dumped the apparently eggless coir in another container, and sure enough one fry hatched, this one was on the surface for 1 day then suddenly became a bellyslider as well.

Next time though I will make sure that I hatch them with the medium they came with.

Yes I can see the eggs withe eyes already, will try to see if I can see the tails, I use a magnifying glass even though I am near sighted. Worse case scenario I can even use a microscope that my dad gave me a long time ago

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.

Now if ever I do try to hatch them again and fries come out, do you recommend that I take them out of the hatching container after 1 day?

Do I feed them greenwater? Or BBS from day 1? I have my doubts if they can really hunt down BBS on day 1?

Also do you add any anti ick/velvet medication in the fry tank?

TTFN
Arvin

[timebomb]

Arvin, I don't know if it's going to be the same with coconut coir. One of the reasons the eggs hatch into belly-sliders when there's no peat is that peat causes the water to become more acidic. I don't know if coconut coir has the same properties.

I usually wait until the fry are free-swimming before transferring them into another tray. That would usually about a day. What are you using to transfer the fry? I know I recommend using a turkey baster but the best tool to use is a Chinese soup spoon. Use those made of plastic. They're very cheap and easily available.

Do not be overly worried that the fry won't get enough food. For the first 24 hours at least, the fry have their yolk sacs to keep them going. If you're really concerned about the food, the best thing to do would be to get the raising trays ready long before you wet the eggs. Just put some mosses into the trays, throw in some snails and leave them where they can get some sun. There will be food (infusoria) after a while. The idea is not to keep the water in trays too clean. When there's dirt, there's food

I have never used anti-ich or anti-velvet medication in a fry tank. Nothos are highly susceptible to velvet but at the fry stage, it's impossible to tell if they have been stricken with this parasite. In theory at least, the velvet parasite dies if they cannot find a host within 5 days. So this is another good reason to get your raising trays ready way beforehand.

Loh K L

[erikthur]

Yes the fry is small but somehow they usually survive.
I give them microworms in addition to the BBS.
I also add javamoss to the fry tank.
Some think the fry eat some of the infusoria accompanying the moss.
Because of the velvet risk I add salt to the nothos tanks to 1 ppt.
When feeding fry with BBS I raise the salt content to 3 ppt.
Then the BBS live much longer.

BTW - I visit Cebu once or twice per 2 years.
So, I wonder if you live in that area or not?

Regards from Sweden,

Erik

[TyroneGenade]

Hi,

Firstly, I have never bred guentheri, but at the temperatures you lot have in Maylasia I doubt the eggs take 2 months to develop. Try 3 to 5 weeks instead. I think the fry may have been "old", having spent too much time in the peat before hatching.

Another option: you are feeding a very varied diet but I wonder just how much of this the fry are eating and how much is rotting at the bottom of the tank. Green water? At night it can suffocate fish as it uses up the oxygen in the water.

I do not think you have velvet problems. The onset of death is too soon after hatching.

I am thinking chemical pollution (rotting food) or the eggs were left too long in the peat.

Don't give up, try again.

And all the best with the rachovii.

Go have a look at http://tgenade.freeshell.org/killibook/. It may be of use to you.

Kind regards

[whuntley]

I do not think you have velvet problems. The onset of death is too soon after hatching.

I am thinking chemical pollution (rotting food) or the eggs were left too long in the peat.

The latter is certainly possible, but after many, many micro-necropsies of sudden baby deaths, I have found the vast majority (probably over 90%) were killed by Velvet infection of the gills. It happens almost immediately.

The organisms were probably in the damp coir, and bloomed before hatching was even complete. It doesn't take many to kill a tiny baby, as the skin never becomes involved and no surface detection is possible.

Peat (not Coir), acriflavin and salt can sometimes help prevent early-death syndrome in baby fish.

Wright

[RonWill]

All the time I have been researching about Killies, and found that the average Incubation for N. Guentherii is 3 to 6 months, but doing a search in this forum and the website, it seems you guys think it is okay to wet after 2 months

Welcome to the forum, Arvin.

I'm not much of an annual species person, preferring Chromaphyosemion, but my first few killies were Notho. rachovii and Simp. magnificus.

In my early research, I've found huge disparity with regards to time and temperature, ie. lower temp = longer incubation. Most online information are charted between 27°~28°C, not higher. Personally, this issue was mostly a hit and miss affair but still, I'd like to share an observation.

For eggs acquired from countries which experience winter, I noticed that 8 weeks is about right (assuming that your ambient storage temp is between 28°~31°C). Eggs from local breeders or the tropics, will show rapid embryol development and ready to wet in about 6 weeks. This applies to the rachovii and presumed accurate also for the guentherii (not applicable to Dol. terranatos and some Aphyolebias which requires 4~6 months!!).

This difference, I suspect, might have something to do with 'time encoding' when the eggs are laid. My observations are non-scientific, of course, but a nagging hunch, so feel free to debunk or test the theory. It'd be real interesting to hear what other killie-keepers have to say about this as well.

I won't discount velvet and pollution either. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there and as for belly sliders, I suspect the eggs were over-incubated or a possibly low-oxygen conditions during hatching. Eggs wetted in a wide tray with 1" of water will fare better, I believe, rather than in a deeper tank.

If you can get hold of another batch of eggs, note all your observations and readings down in a journal. Do trial dunkings at 6, 7 and 8th week together with peat media and compare with your past results. Good luck.

Hope this helps (if not, take two Panadol and call me in the morning!)

[arvin555]

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions. Here I am trying to wait out one more month and most of you think that the eggs were over incubated. I will try to wet the whole batch as soon as I get home.

My comments below:

1. I have aerated the water very well before trying to hatch them, so I'm sure O2 level is very high.

2. Once I tried with Acriflavin, the fries died so I tried without and same thing happened, maybe not Velvet, but might try to hatch with two separate waters, one with medication, one without.

3. Loh, unfortunately in Philippines, not easy to find Chinese soup spoon that is plastic, but I know what you mean and I will try to find one No problem. And good idea by the way.

3. Erik, I live in Manila unfortunately, but thing is I was born in Cebu, still have some family members living there, and once in a while I visit, but maybe like once every 3 to 5 years! If you need help there or you need anything, just tell me I can ask my cousin to help out if needed.

4. Regarding feeding, I don't feed until I have a hatch, but yeah maybe I do overfeed, don't put Ramshorn in for fear of them eating eggs, but will try to do this too next chance.

I do put in Javamoss as well, and infusoria, I think I have a culture of paramecium, not 100% it is but hey are good food for newly hatched betta fry. I was surprised that Minghan is also here, he is also a Betta head like me

TTFN
Arvin

[erikthur]

Thanks for the offer, Arwin.
I have a philippina wife (who kept her house in Talamban) and some in-laws near-by though. We try to stay out of Manila because my wife dislikes that kind of mega-city.

BTW - Do you know if Aplocheilus panchax is present in Cebu fresh waters?

[arvin555]

I didn't know that there are killies native in my country, A. Panchax, or were you actually asking if it is available in pet stores?

If in LFS, I doubt it, the only time I heard of killies for sale was with a friend of ours that import and sell fishes from his home. I think he has some Panchax, I'll ask when I get back from my trip.

The only killi like fish that I know of here are the Rice fishes that are of the same family as the Medakas, though haven't really seen them as well because they supposed to be found in the northern part of luzon.

TTFN
Arvin

[erikthur]

So I thought too (about Medakas) but after fooling around with Fishbase I got this information:
http://www.fishbase.se/Country/Count...pecies=panchax
So now I wonder what small fish I spotted in the little stream behind our house. Unfortunately it is very hard to climb down there

[erikthur]

However, I checked with Killiedata-online this morning and there the panchax is mentioned as unknown from the Philippines sadly enough.
May-be I have to catch what I saw anyhow?

[arvin555]

we might be way out of topic here already, but there is a "feeder fish" here that looks like medaka or a killie, we call them "Kataba" and they are sold like guppies as food fish for predatory pets and fishes. Not sure if that is what you saw. Best thing is to ask a kid to try to catch some fishes in return for some money, say P20 or something, then try to indentify the fishes. My brother and I are avid dipnetters and when we were young we'd go almost anywhere to sample and catch fishes, nowadays we are more conservative in where we go and tread water. But we still do get to catch stuff to be kept as pets.

One thing we want to find is if there is any wild betta species in the country, of course now that we are into killies, we are interested about endemic species of killies as well, most probably they will be non annuals if ever they are present.

TTFN
Arvin

[erikthur]

Threads sometime go off-topic and often get more interesting...
Thanks for your suggestion - I did not think of that.
My wife had not heard of Kataba but she only considered fish as food until she met me and my hobby...
Good luck with your killies,

Erik

[TyroneGenade]

1. I have aerated the water very well before trying to hatch them, so I'm sure O2 level is very high.

Alternatively, you can use cool (10--16degC) water. Works for me.

[arvin555]

Kataba is I just found out a type of Molly or Platy, so not a killie. Unfortunately to add to confusion, Kataba is also used as a local name for our Archerfish.

Thanks for the suggestion Tyrone, about the use of cool water, problem is that average temp now in my house is 35degrees C so after a few hours the 16degC water will be near room temp already, the aeration helps keep the water cool though. I have been reading up on Killifish egg hatching triggers, and I think cool water might play a small factor in triggering eggs, I mean I imagine that after being in hot mud for a long time, the rains will be quite cold and thus there is a big drop in temp for the eggs, then maybe when the water warms up they start coming out.... maybe.

TTFN
Arvin

[TyroneGenade]

You can put the water in the fridge. I do this in summer when temperatures are too warm here in S. Africa. Works well, particularly if you are trying to keep South American Annuals (and don't want to fuss with oxygen tablets).

[arvin555]

did you mean put the eggs in water and then put the water with eggs in the ref?

TTFN
Arvin

[stoker]

I just use rain water straight from the rain butt , temp about 60 f pH 6 put the eggs and peat in hatching container , pour water over them about an inch add some infusoria and micro-worms . Just leave it on the top shelf of the fish- house to warm up and the fry hatch without any trouble within 24 hours....


Mike