peacock moss and spiky moss

[bercik14]

I greet colleagues. I am from poland ). You think of that peacock moss and spinky moss? You think that it it same mchy not? Behind (for) my english sory

[muschi]

Hello Panie Bercik,
I never understood those popular names, and why people don't use already established scientific names for critters be those animal or vegetal. Latin names were there before someone bastardised them with "fancy popular names". I propose to go back to the origins and try to use latin names. I know some of my fellow americans will not fully agree, but please let's try to use the right scientific language as Linnaeus teached us few hundred years ago...

Panje Bercik welcome aboard, you guys in Polskie are doing miraculous things with mosses.
dimi

[timebomb]

Well, it's not really that difficult to understand, Dimi. Not everyone is familiar with the language and Latin words in particular are difficult to read and even harder to spell. I myself find it impossible to remember if it's i before e or e before i with the Latin name "barbeiri". And I'm educated in the English language. When you consider those who don't even speak English at all, it wouldn't be hard to understand why they would have difficulties with the Latin names.

There will always be a need for common names and if we insist that everyone who's in the hobby use only the scientific names, we would only be putting them off the hobby.

Anyway, the professor has already examined the mosses more than once and as far as we know, there's only a Spiky Moss. It's the same as the one which is known in some circles as Peacock Moss. But please do not use the Peacock name. This is because that name has already been taken by a terrestrial moss, scientific name Hypopterygium tenellum.

Please refer to this thread for more details and pictures.

Loh K L

[muschi]

Well, it's not really that difficult to understand, Dimi.

Loh, I do REALLY appreciate your efforts here, so to set things the right way from the begining I have NO intention of being contradictory. In another post where there is a lot of "intelectual masturbation on common names" you said this" To the professor, the common names are not important. Academics like him use only the Latin names. As far as they are concerned, there is no confusion. ". you said it and looks like you understand it. Any tendency to bastardise or vulgarise it will set you back.

Not everyone is familiar with the language and Latin words in particular are difficult to read and even harder to spell.

Many are familiar, especially in Europe where scientific names are the norm.

I myself find it impossible to remember if it's i before e or e before i with the Latin name "barbeiri". And I'm educated in the English language.

Fundamental confusion. Education in English has no connection with using scientifc names. "Au contraire", as French use to say. You are right, those educated in English has major difficulties to understand Linnaeus. And Linnaeus was not even Latin or Italian or Romanian, he was Swedish but he is the one who gave us unique names to living creatures. not accepting him is an unfortunate truth which is ...true here in USA as well as in Asia which is following the US model. This is not common in Europe.

When you consider those who don't even speak English at all, it wouldn't be hard to understand why they would have difficulties with the Latin names.

Wrong and clearly shows you luck of knowledge on this issue, only English speaking people has trouble with scientific/latin names, the rest of us (and we are another majority) have no problem..think about French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanians , and anglo-saxon speakers like Germans, all scandinavians, Flemish, and Eastern Europe including the Slavic ones...they understand Latin names...even you use more scientific names in your postings then popular names..check this forum and do statistics and you'll see YOU use more scientific names then popular ones...

There will always be a need for common names and if we insist that everyone who's in the hobby use only the scientific names, we would only be putting them off the hobby.

Wrong. You will make them feel more important. Latin names are easy to use and leave no doubt as your professor said. How would you like if I call your kid(s) under other names then the ones they already have..just because I don't understand those names so we need to rebaptise with new common names?
..now let's focus to our hobby.... I don't write that much on forums..maybe I'm in the wrong place...so Loh, don't take it personally, please....

[timebomb]

Dimi,

I won't take it personally. There's no reason to. I can see where you are coming from but if you don't mind me saying, I think you're being over-zealous with the Latin names.

When I wrote that some people may have difficulties with Latin names, I had in mind the many fish shop-owners and hobbyists in Singapore who speak only Mandarin and no English at all. With the Chinese language (Mandarin in its written form), there's no alphabet. Some hobbyists in Singapore can't tell the letter a from b. With such folks, would you still insist that they use only Latin names? As it is, even with the common names, they already have difficulties. If you find that hard to understand, try reading this Chinese word for Christmas Moss - 三角莫絲. After that, try writing it. And then imagine someone telling you that you have to know how to read and write this Chinese name first before you are allowed to grow the moss. Then imagine him also telling you that if you use any other name, you are just being vulgar, that it's equivalent to intellectual masturbation and that you are bastardising the names.

In such circumstances, do you think you would still want to grow moss?

Even with the folks who are familiar with English, we must understand that not everyone is interested in the science. Many people grow mosses for the simple fact that they take joy in the beauty of a planted tank. They have no interest in learning the Latin names. They see no problems with using the common names because that's what they are using with all other living organisms. To them, what you are saying would be like you're insisting that they have to learn the Latin names of the elephant, the tiger, the lion and all the other animals before they can go to the zoo. Come on, man, can't you give people a break?

You have noticed correctly that I use mostly only the Latin names. But that's just me. I don't insist that everyone has to follow my way.

You asked how I would feel if you call my children by names other than those that I have given them. Naturally, I will feel offended. But you are using the incorrect analogy. In this instance, a better analogy would be how I would react if you had insisted on calling my daughter Homo sapiens Loh PeiSi when her name is Loh PeiSi. In such a case, I would just think you are crazy, that's all.

Loh K L

[muschi]

Dimi,
I won't take it personally. There's no reason to. I can see where you are coming from but if you don't mind me saying, I think you're being over-zealous with the Latin names.

Hi Loh,
Good to hear that.
The ONLY reason for which I was recommending the use of scientific names (as much as we can) is to eliminate confusions as you can see. Then, even for an amateur it will be unplesant to find out 3 years later that his "Xmoss" he got from a store is actually the "Ymoss"..well duh...it was just another popular name.

When I wrote that some people may have difficulties with Latin names, I had in mind the many fish shop-owners and hobbyists in Singapore who speak only Mandarin and no English at all. With the Chinese language (Mandarin in its written form), there's no alphabet. Some hobbyists in Singapore can't tell the letter a from b. With such folks, would you still insist that they use only Latin names?

Now I understand. There are no mandarin scientist over there? If so, I understand now, but if there are some, let's say, do they use scientific names?

There are several people from Singapore, Malaysia etc that are selling mosses with false names. When told, they just stop replying to email and keep the false advertisements..I presume making a profit is more important than the truth. Think about dozens of young hobbyists being falsely "educated" in a hobby we all love (see various forums discussing those moss sellers).

Even with the folks who are familiar with English, we must understand that not everyone is interested in the science.

The point is that there is no connection in being interested in science and using the proper names. I repeat, I do not force anyone, I'm just giving a GOOD common sense idea: Folks try to use scientific names where possible, so we will deal with less confusion! You don't have to be interested in science. I did not made this statement.

Secondly, as a retorical question if some are not interested in science why should they be interested to learn the ID of mosses?.. In your perspective they should call mosses A B C D or cement moss or such....

Many people grow mosses for the simple fact that they take joy in the beauty of a planted tank. They have no interest in learning the Latin names. They see no problems with using the common names because that's what they are using with all other living organisms. To them, what you are saying would be like you're insisting that they have to learn the Latin names of the elephant, the tiger, the lion and all the other animals before they can go to the zoo.

Incorrect inference. See above the reason for which I was recommending scientific names. The professor said he does not care of popular names. You mention it. If hobbyists do not care of the real ID of a moss, well all this debate is useless. I was refering to those who care about real IDs and they are not necessarly into science.

Come on, man, can't you give people a break?

My intentions were genuinely good. Don't you believe?

You have noticed correctly that I use mostly only the Latin names. But that's just me. I don't insist that everyone has to follow my way.

This eliminates doubts and is an example of what I was talking about. Don't worry I do not expect people to change behaviours or beliefs..I just had a moment of genuine naivite when I recommended scientific names. [/i]. [i]We all have our weeknesses.

You asked how I would feel if you call my children by names other than those that I have given them. Naturally, I will feel offended.

I do not feel offended by people using common names for mosses or fishes etc.

But you are using the incorrect analogy. In this instance, a better analogy would be how I would react if you had insisted on calling my daughter Homo sapiens Loh PeiSi when her name is Loh PeiSi. In such a case, I would just think you are crazy, that's all.

Very nice joke on a parallel interpretation not on the issue, but let's say I believe you have good intentions and I believe I have good intentions too, so let's put it aside... so, what do you believe?

Otherwise have a nice day and wish the best to our good people around.

dimi

[imported_lampeye]

Again, to minimize controversy, why don't we look at common names in the moss hobby as equivalent to cultivar names? That should satisfy everyone, I hope.

[timebomb]

The ONLY reason for which I was recommending the use of scientific names (as much as we can) is to eliminate confusions as you can see. Then, even for an amateur it will be unplesant to find out 3 years later that his "Xmoss" he got from a store is actually the "Ymoss"..well duh...it was just another popular name.

Like I said earlier, Dimi, I can understand your reasons for recommending the use of scientific names but it does not necessarily mean that if everyone uses scientific names, the names will never change. In any case, with the aquarium mosses, there will always be cases of misidentification for the simple reason it's hard to tell them apart.

Now I understand. There are no mandarin scientist over there? If so, I understand now, but if there are some, let's say, do they use scientific names?

I'm sure the scientists (whether they speak only Mandarin or not) will have little problems with the scientific names. I'm not sure if all scientists do this but the professor told me he spent more than a year learning Latin. I can't think of any other group of people, other than scientists, who would want to spend their time learning a dead language.

There are several people from Singapore, Malaysia etc that are selling mosses with false names. When told, they just stop replying to email and keep the false advertisements..I presume making a profit is more important than the truth. Think about dozens of young hobbyists being falsely "educated" in a hobby we all love (see various forums discussing those moss sellers).

Yes, I'm aware of these unscrupulous moss sellers. More than once, in this forum, I have described them as "scum of the earth". I have more reasons to be angry at them than most. For one thing, they often use without asking for my permission, my pictures to sell their mosses.

But I don't see how by using scientific names, we can stop these moss-sellers from cheating buyers. It's not like a scientific name is a guarantee that the moss would turn out to be the correct one.

The point is that there is no connection in being interested in science and using the proper names. I repeat, I do not force anyone, I'm just giving a GOOD common sense idea: Folks try to use scientific names where possible, so we will deal with less confusion! You don't have to be interested in science. I did not made this statement.

There is a connection. If there isn't, why then is it known as a scientific name? Carolus Linnaeus invented a good system of classifying all living organisms into groups that makes sense to the scientists. Before him, systems of classifications were highly inconsistent. From the book by Bill Bryson, "A short history of nearly everything", I quote "Living things could be categorised by whether they were wild or domesticated, terrestrial or aquatic, large or small, even whether they were thought handsome and noble or of no consequence."

But to the laymen, Linnaeus' binomial system of naming organisms is unimportant. An elephant will always be an elephant to the lay person. He does not see the need to classify an African elephant from an Asian elephant. To him, they are the same animal. It's only the scientists and those who are interested in the science who know that the former is a Loxodonta africana while the latter is Elephas maximus.

Of course, you are not forcing your views on anyone. But in your posts, you used words like "bastardise", "vulgarize" and "intellectual masturbation" to argue your points. These are strong words, my friend. And they can be very offensive to some people.

Secondly, as a retorical question if some are not interested in science why should they be interested to learn the ID of mosses?.. In your perspective they should call mosses A B C D or cement moss or such....

Moss lovers often want to know the names of their mosses so that in discussions with others, they can identify their mosses correctly. We, as more serious hobbyists, know that common names are unreliable so we stick with the Latin names. I personally wouldn't mind spending time educating someone on the complexities and the good reasons behind the use of scientific names but I will never imply that by using common names, a person is bastardising the names. My article on the use of scientific names for Killifish is archived in this website. It was written many years ago.

My intentions were genuinely good. Don't you believe?

Of course, you had the best of intentions. But like they say, "The path to hell is often paved with good intentions". By all means, persuade people to learn the correct scientific names and use them but do not write your posts like you're the plant-name police. You only turn people away from the hobby when you do that.

This eliminates doubts and is an example of what I was talking about. Don't worry I do not expect people to change behaviours or beliefs..I just had a moment of genuine naivite when I recommended scientific names. We all have our weeknesses.

If you noticed, I don't just use only the scientific names. Often, I will put them beside the common names. Also, I try my best to ensure all the scientific names appear in the right order, that the names are in italics and the first letter of the genus name is in capitals. As you can see, as far as scientific names are concerned, I'm even more fussy than you. But I just try and set a good example, that's all. I'm not critical of those who don't do the same.

I do not feel offended by people using common names for mosses or fishes etc.

It's good that you are not offended. But please be less critical.

Otherwise have a nice day and wish the best to our good people around.

You have a nice day too. You obviously have a passion for the hobby. Please stick around. I, for one, would like to hear from you more often.

Loh K L

[hii]

There are several people from Singapore, Malaysia etc that are selling mosses with false names. When told, they just stop replying to email and keep the false advertisements..I presume making a profit is more important than the truth. Think about dozens of young hobbyists being falsely "educated" in a hobby we all love (see various forums discussing those moss sellers).

How do you 100% sure that other country people won't sell the mosses with fake name even they use the science name correctly? Anyone start naming it wrong than more and more people getting it wrong. The seller might got the wrong name when they purchase it from another seller. So please do not point the fault to seller in Singapore and Malaysia.

If you experience enough and do some reserch online than you won't be cheated. I always saw funny moss name but i trust my experience and educate my friends there is no such new moss in this world and point them to the corect direction.

Wrong and clearly shows you luck of knowledge on this issue, only English speaking people has trouble with scientific/latin names, the rest of us (and we are another majority) have no problem..think about French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanians , and anglo-saxon speakers like Germans, all scandinavians, Flemish, and Eastern Europe including the Slavic ones...they understand Latin names...

Are you feeling proud because majority of you can understand and use the name probably cause it is close to your language? What do you think your majority compare to China more than 10 billions people?

Base on you comments I guess you're lack of knowledge too, if you master the science name and common name than you're the master, only by doing that you can easily fit into other culture and understand how others feel.

Your words sound very proud and selfish.

I also don't write a lot in forum but after seeing this thread than it really make me feel due to use of some sensitive words.