Importance of Language and Writing Carefully

[Heiko Bleher]

*** Edit by Vinz ***
The first few posts in this thread is extracted from the Heckel Discus thread. An AQ member made reference to a post made by another AQ member in a DIFFERENT forum and accusations were made. What followed was a war of words between the members.

AQ stepped in to douse the flames, but other members replied to discuss the importance of writing properly and carefully.

I've copied the posts that started it all and moved the followups here so that we may continue the discussion without disrupting the other thread.

I do hope we can have a healthy discussion.
*** End Edit ***

Hi,

incredible, what has my comment (which is my comment) to do with racist? Unbelievable! Are you also a word-twister???
I am probably the least racist person on this planet - and have always been. You should not twist the words or read only what you want to read – the facts is what one should read. And I ONLY write facts.

And by pointing out what I have said: those are FACTS (and nothing to do with racist AT ALL). The fact is that these "Heckel discus" shown are hybrids. It has been proved genetically (publication from August 1st, 2007 in aqua International journal of Ichthyology volume 12(4)). And I do never say that my book is the ultimate or anyone has to read it, I just said (and always say) "I wish". As it took me almost 50 years of practical experience in nature and in aquaria and more than 300 field trips to discus habitats and Amazonia to compile it. And much more. (Your "friend" has not done one single one...). And I am with that, a "life-time-work" passing on my practical experience - nothing else. That is why I wish that people who keep wilds would read it. Thousends have thanked me and changed their way of keeping and taking care of wilds (you can see it on thousands of websites and hundreds of conferences I did hold...).

But you know, I really do not care if people don't, it is their own cup of tea. And you know also:I do not need this garbage from you and I do not need at all to write here. If you do not take this false accusation away,I will never come back to this forum, I do not need it.

Heiko Bleher

[illumnae]

For the sake of peace on the forum and a constructive discussion, i've edited away my more challenging remarks and replaced it with some google research that I've done Thanks for pointing out the genetic research done, it's greatly appreciated. I'm really glad that I have found out more about the fish that I now keep, as it's never nice not knowing where the wild fish you own came from.

However, until you retract the statement you made on the other forum, I will not back down from my stand that you are either severely misinformed or downright racist. As you can see from this forum alone, more than "a few, if any" people from asia have ever seen a wild discus. That means what you wrote isn't fact right? Please retract that statement and I will gladly apologise to you.

Edit: For those who are curious, here's what Heiko said: "99% of all Asian do not even know what a Heckel discus looks like and very few, if any have ever seen a wild discus"

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

if you want to can retract/change it to "99% of Asian people cannot distinguish a Heckel discus from a blue discus very well, most of them have never seen a wild natural Heckel discus. The majority only know the so called Heckel-cross and misidentify these hybrids (and also the sometimes imported natural hybrids of S. haraldi x S. discus) with the real species of Symphysodon discus (=Heckel discus).

I hope you can live with that, as it is the fact.
best regards

Heiko Bleher

PS: And I noted before: Asian for me is those people in Asia - except Japan - that handle/keep/sell/trade/breed discus

[vinz]

Hi all,

I can see why Heiko's original comment (quoted below) could have been taken to be racist.

99% of all Asian do not even know what a Heckel discus looks like and very few, if any have ever seen a wild discus

However, I think he has clarified (quoted below) what he really meant:

99% of Asian people cannot distinguish a Heckel discus from a blue discus very well, most of them have never seen a wild natural Heckel discus. The majority only know the so called Heckel-cross and misidentify these hybrids (and also the sometimes imported natural hybrids of S. haraldi x S. discus) with the real species of Symphysodon discus (=Heckel discus).

I want to point out there are quite a few people in this forum who do not speak/write English well, and may not put across their point quite correctly. Which can lead to misunderstanding. It would be good to give some benefit of doubt and ask for clarification.

I think it is also good to question establish knowledge or facts, simply for the idea that sometimes facts can be wrong, in light of new discoveries, information, etc. Even experts face challenges as well. However, we should be ready to accept that our challenges could, in turn, be re-buffed soundly.

On another note, a forum is a collection of individuals, with the purpose of bringing together different people with similar interests. However, the sole opinion or actions of one or a few members does not represent the opinion of the entire forum. If members leave because of one individual, then the larger community has lost.

The personal aspect of the disagreement between Heiko and Illumnae is between them and AQ will not interfere except to ask that they take their personal disagreements out of public and keep the discussion on-topic. Offense was made and the offended has registered their indignance. Now, please resolve it in private if you must.

I remind ALL members to refrain from personal attacks.

Finally, what has transgressed is openly presented in this thread and all readers can draw their own conclusions about the disagreement and the members involved.

Now, let's all get back to talking about fish!

[mictok]

Hi,

if you want to can retract/change it to "99% of Asian people cannot distinguish a Heckel discus from a blue discus very well, most of them have never seen a wild natural Heckel discus. The majority only know the so called Heckel-cross and misidentify these hybrids (and also the sometimes imported natural hybrids of S. haraldi x S. discus) with the real species of Symphysodon discus (=Heckel discus).

I hope you can live with that, as it is the fact.
best regards

Heiko Bleher

PS: And I noted before: Asian for me is those people in Asia - except Japan - that handle/keep/sell/trade/breed discus

I think that the choice of words is important since all of us came from different back ground and culture.What is practise at our country or even home town may not be suitable for us to bring it with us to where ever we go. Freedom of speech dont mean we dont have to consider the feelings of others.

For Mr Heiko,I strongly feel that if there is a different opinion on the choice of your words and comments,please take a step back to consider about the feelings of others.No matter how well established is your market,remember that respect is to be earn and no ask.By your statement of your finding of our Asian market in terms of our exposure to wild discus actually shown that you have belittle us rather than extendng a olive branch.ont let anyone live with your choice of words that is hurting,I would like to quote this from a respectable Brother that feature from the last season of Survivor : Love All,Trust Few & Do Wrong to None.

By the way,i dont quite understand your statement of referring Asia but ex-Japan.Japan is part of Asia and dont usually beng single out unless we are talking about financial matters.Maybe you are trying to say that Japanese did know and seen wild Heckel Discus before from your encounter but that will mean that you may need to reduce your 99% opinion to maybe 80% as we are proud to say that Japan is part of Asia
and not as a separate entity unless any Japanese would write in to correct me.

In any way if you cant accept my comments or feel offended,I am truly sorry for that,I just want to give out my 5 cents worth of opinion.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

I think this is the last time I will write on this topic and want just once more point out what seems to me that some do not understand (or do not want to understand).

First of all I have the maximum of respect to every living soul/person/animal/insect (except for cockroaches and mosquitoes). I was brought up this way and surely quite different than most of you. In nature, in the jungle where every living thing is highly respected (actually also where I feel best... this is also why I go back so often).

Secondly I have always been polite to people. I am sure most of those who know me a little can confirm this around the globe - except for those who talk bad about myself. Maybe because of not asking me for what such and such means (or what it may mean, if they do not understand the language so well), or because of jealousy, or because of anger, or because they cannot do what I am doing... And specially those which talk behind my back. (Or behind anyone's back.)

Thirdly, it is very (VERY) difficult to write (if one writes, specially as much as I do) in a way to please ALL, simply because there is always a language barrier (and always will be). And because there are persons who belong to those mentioned under 2. (above). Especially jealous individuals who try to harm the persons they are jealous off, by every way possible, and that includes mis-interpretation of words, by twisting words around, or by placing words into once mouth which were never outspoken. And I (also because I have to write often in 8 languages), I always choose my words VERY carefully. For instance when I write (or say) "Asians" it is like "Europeans", "Americans", etc. it means simply "people from that part of the world" (and I think for almost every one it means the same) and has NOTHING to do with a race, nor is a racist word. Simply because there are hundreds of races in Asia or elsewhere.

To me when I write "Asians" it means simply people from that region of the Earth and not a race. (And much less racist. I have given hundreds of seminars and lectures around the world using this term without ever having been accused of racist.) With other words if 99% of the Asians do not know what a real Heckel discus, is or looks like, than this is so. And the reason for it is simple (as explained before and elsewhere): the wild Heckel discus (S.discus) has very seldom been imported into any Asian country, except for Japan, as Japanese have a long and old tradition of (since 1969 when I exported the first ones to them) wild discus and also Heckel discus (S. discus). This shows even today by the many "Asian" championships. I was this year invited again in Japan (see my website Discus Contest 200 to judge discus and of the 100 discus 50 were wilds and 50 tank breeds to be judged (and the wilds in 4 categories: Heckel Discus; Blue Discus; Brown Discus and Green Discus). Than I was invited in Shanghai (AQUARIA 200 to judge 72 discus and also in Malaysia (AQUA FAIR 200 to judge 260 discus (before also in Hong Kong, Guanghzou, Thailand, etc.) and NONE of the latter had a single wild discus to be judged and much less a wild discus category (as done for instance always in Japan, Europe or America).
That again shows, that "Asians", except for Japanese, have little interest in wild discus (or do not import them or cannot get them), and one cannot see Heckel discus anywhere. So how can today's "Asian" discus breeders, hobbyist, wholesaler, importers, etc. know what a real Heckel discus looks like? In addition those few pictures shown in hundreds of Asian magazines and books (except the Japanese) with the name "Heckel discus" have mostly been a Heckel-cross and not a real S. discus Heckel,1840. So how can they ("Asians") know the real S. discus?

This is why I wrote what I wrote and under no other thought or meaning what some want to understand on this forum. I am sure I have acted correctly, written correctly and respected everyone, as I aways will with the above exceptions, but it is impossible for me (or anyone by that matter) to go into the brain of every living soul.

All the best

respectfully

Heiko Bleher

[raglan]

Heiko, I think that this explanation contains some truths which were overlooked, and overlooks some truths.

That you were talking about Asia seemed clear to me, and I compared the statement to one saying " Asia-produced hybrids" and also mentioning "America". Now, if you mention "America", in contrast to Asia, then we know. It's a location, not a people - or peoples.

You included Japan in your first clarification, thus showing location was involved, but the point that it was locale that you wanted to refer to, that was not "driven home" by this clarification. That perhaps is because Japan is an Asian country, and because it was also your exception, when you were talking about Japan with regard to Asian peoples.

If you had said "compared to America" (where many Asians and Asian-Americans live], then your meaning might have been driven home. Had you compared to Germany, or Germans it might have been even more complex ( IMO) > that's just how so many people think. If you said "Germany" then some people would have thought it was about ethnicity, not even race . Especially because of your background. Myself, I think of Germans as being "into" Natural Sciences, and Technology, historically. When talking about aquaria I probably tend to think and act in a certain way with regard to Germans because of this conception I have.

Look at what trouble the Professor, Chair of Public Understanding of Science, Oxford , has, in distinguishing between the Jewish religion and the Pro Israel Lobby. Even worse because he won't deal with it, other than to repeat it. In his case, he needs to clarify and apologize for causing fear in some susceptible people. Simply because of his position and ability, I lose respect for him him if he does not make more of an attempt at reaching public understanding. Not "telling" understanding on this issue, but reaching it, as a duty.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-...q_b_68644.html
Even though I think Dawkins uses very poor logic so often, he still is a top ranking biologist in the public mind, and since he's writing in English, he's English university educated, and an experienced and gifted writer, logically he should be distinguishing well between a religion, an ethnic group, and a political lobby. But he's not.

That's why I think we all deserve some understanding for insufficiencies we all have to some degree.


I do not think that most of the people who might have seen it the other way, as racist, actually "want" to take it that way.

It's a subject that has such gray boundaries, the differences between race and ethnicity and location and culture.

For instance, African-Americans can surely self-identify accurately, confirmed by DNA, as having Sub Saharan ancestry, but statements about Africans are very often "translated" into a statement about people of African descent wherever they grew up, or how many generations removed.

African Americans having American food. media, culture, but have some African ethnic ties, too, making a complex situation.The media seems to so often get it mixed together , too.

After words and phrases are so many times said and presented in a mixed way, it does lead thought in that way, without anyone necessarily "wanting to" think in that direction, IMO.

That's why at least some if not all those who thought it racist, should not be seen as having bad intentions or being overly " offended" for no good reason.
It's quite natural to not make clear distinctions in one's mind.

And so I would say that it is sometimes better to make allowances for other's predictable reactions, to "hot button" words and subjects. More and more there are hot button words, too !

I personally think every one of us has some "racist" understanding of the world, but those with care make sure they don't behave in a bigoted fashion, through wishing harm to people of a certain race, or wishing they would "go away".

And of course, it is reasonable to make allowance for those who unintentionally offended some others.

'Specially if apologies all round start.

Anyway, I hope you visit more often, not less, because for me this forum has a nice feeling to it. This isn't that American Discus forum !

Here they seem to moderate without being engaged in argument, very respectful of what others write. Not moving, burying and deleting comments and threads whenever management is not arguing well.
Not that the management doesn't argue well, here...it's that they don't start the argument and then take hidden and public actions against the opposition.

So please.... can we stay and talk for a minute about the discus paper I posted a few posts back

I noticed that they prefer your naming system and information to Ready Kullander et al. "Tarzoo report"
Can you tell us what this study found that was different from your findings or experience - or were they looking at a different aspect ?

I notice they didn't use too many specimens, and couldn't see any spotting on one group of preserved specimens they were sent, as an ID feature. Is using this few "sent" specimens a severe problem, and is not having personal knowledge of capture locale a severe problem here ?
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...rm=iso&tlng=en

P.S. Did you meet Jim Robinson in Toronto and talk about altums ? I was the bright guy who phoned Jim to let him know, but then I missed your lecture day.

P.S. illumnae is a good person too.


Dave Best.

[budak]

Personally, I see nothing racist about Heiko's comment. It's merely an observation based on what he feels the market or trade in Asia (outside Japan as he clarified) is like. It's not like he's making a statement of fact about some innate quality (or lack of) that Asians are born with. If anyone disagrees, why not rebut him with facts instead of making unpleasant accusations?

[vinz]

How can they rebut correctly when they misunderstand the comment to be racists in the first place?

[jwuog]

Well, for a start, stop getting overly sensitive over every remark, as the point had been made that not every tom, dick and harry is adept with the English language.

I personally don't think its a question of 'misunderstanding' but rather people latched on to certain phrases or words, and get all riled up without pausing to think –
is that any ill intention at all?

Agree with budak, don't find anything racist. Just someone who tries to share his years of experience, albeit a bit long winded (sorry).

[vinz]

Illumnae, I'm hiding (soft-delete) your response while I review it. Frankly, I find it quite provocative (perhaps, your occupational hazard) and maybe off-topic. I'm at work right now, so it'll take a while.

[illumnae]

Sure, you're the boss I don't see how it's any more irrelevant that posts #1 and #6 above though, which were allowed. However, it's ultimately your call to make and I'll respect your decision.

[Merviso]

Hey guys, we are all here to enjoy the hobby and learn how to provide a better environment for our fishes; through sharing of knowledge, experiences and resources..

Let's not bring in too much of the other factors that will only invite endless arguments and unhappiness...

More importantly, let's not for the sake of winning an argument lose a friend. Peace to all...

[vinz]

Illumnae,

I have reviewed your post above and it will remain deleted.

It has gone off-topic and seems to be a continuation of the argument you have with Heiko. You even start the post by making more personal attacks and accusations.

Posts #1 and #6 were COPIED from the Heckel Discus thread, to serve as examples of what can cause misunderstanding. I have kept them visible in the original thread as well, so that all can see what transpired and as you said, "draw their own conclusions". I have also publicly asked both you and Heiko to take your personal arguments offline, if you must resolve it.

In my opinion, while Heiko is not without fault, he has respected my comments and only tried to explain his position, without making any personal attacks. Your post, on the other hand, attacks specific points of his replies. You do not seem to be able to see the bigger picture of his or other members replies, nor the thread as a whole.

Perhaps, it is the nature of your vocation to pick on your opponent's arguments in great detail. Perhaps, in your vocation there is a need to WIN an argument. But this is a forum, a community. A place where people contribute, discuss and learn from each other. A place where winning means the members win as a whole by gaining new knowledge from the collective experiences and work of individuals. A place where we tolerate personality quirks and we give benefit of doubt. A place where we agree to disagree.

If you disagree, just say you disagree. You do not have to aggressively challenge anyone. If you have facts or evidence to prove your point, then present them and present your argument in a neutral objective manner. Let the facts speak for themselves. If you ask for facts, and the other is not able or is unwilling to present them, then everybody else can draw their own conclusions.

Sometimes, it's just experience. And we people quote experience, they are saying "this is what I did, or went through, and what I saw. Based on that, I have made a certain conclusion. I did not do a robust survey or experiment to prove the accuracy, so it's up to you, the audience, to decide based on my recount, whether you agree or not."

Experience v.s. facts. People can SEE and decide for themselves.

I usually try to take a neutral stand and resolve matters as fairly as I humanly can. My long post early was a diplomatic reply to allow both of you to withdraw with dignity and "save face". It seems that you are unable to do that.

I appreciate that you challenge long held beliefs, knowledge, practices, etc within and without the forum. It is good that these are challenged and discussed so that new knowledge may surface and erroneous ones be trashed.

However, I do NOT appreciate your argumentative and aggressive style of writing. It causes more unpleasantness than your contributions are worth. I would rather AQ live without your contributions than to have your writing tear down the columns of AQ's culture when we are too busy to look. Or to have my moderators burn out because they get tired of having to control the little fires that you start (whether purposely or otherwise).

As I said earlier, I try to be neutral and fair. But I, together with Simon and Benny, are the owners of this "house" that we built (together with the blood and sweat of past and present founders, admins and moderators). You, like the rest of the members, are guests. If we feel you are not able to "play well" with others, we will not hesitate to ask you (nicely or otherwise) to leave if we feel it's better for the family overall. Regardless of whether it's fair or not.

P.S.: If you don't get it, the above is a warning to you and please don't pick on my points and argue with me like petulant child. That will earn you an immediate time out.

[vinz]

...

Here they seem to moderate without being engaged in argument, very respectful of what others write. Not moving, burying and deleting comments and threads whenever management is not arguing well.
Not that the management doesn't argue well, here...it's that they don't start the argument and then take hidden and public actions against the opposition.

...

Dave Best.

Hi Dave, thank you for the affirmation. We do try to be transparent. However, I fear my reply to Illumnae above may disappoint. I'm keeping his reply hidden for now to keep the thread on-topic and prevent a flame war.

Maybe other forums don't bother because it's really takes time and effort to read the posts, make heads or tails of them then decide on a proper response and compose the response. It's simply a lot easier to just delete, delete, delete, ban, ban, ban and sweep it all under the carpet... but to the detriment of the community.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

first of all thank you very much budak, jwuog and vinz.

Dave Best has made a question and I want to answer fast,
about the discus paper you posted a few posts back:

*** Edit by Vinz ***
Heiko's reply to Dave's (Raglan) question has been moved to a new thread.
*** End edit ***

Best regards and thanks again, it is all experiance, that's what it is,

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com
www-aqua-aquaprtess.com

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