Crystal red shrimp and Estimative Index

[Plantbrain]

Some folks in the USA have been telling folks about CRS and how sensitive they are to fertilizers, and to temprature.

I've had some for well over a year now in 2 tanks and with and without fish(Botia sidthmunki, Galaxay rasboras), other shrimps(Amano) in high light, ADA AS and EI dosing, with 1-2x a week 50% water changes.

Similar KH/GH as the tap in SG, perhaps lower KH(about 1.5 here).

I add CO2, my temp is 78-79F during the winter, goes up into the 80's during the summer.

I started with 12, I now have maybe 40? Or more.

These shrimp are inbred as it is, inbreeding farther with hobbyists not practicing good husbandtry is suspect for people having issues.

Do not marry your sister in other words, exchange genetic stock with other people's shrimp, do not keep breeding more and more of the same grou over and over. I have to wonder if that is not 90% of the issue, because I have not lost any shrimp, they breed, I have fry and I dose these things that some claim will kill them.

And nyet they both live, breed and reproduce well.

Could I get more out of the breeding program? I think so, but I like a nice looking planted tank also. So there's a few less shrimp bred, I trade few with other people for genetic stock exchange once a year etc.

Then I have no issues nor have any risk.
This is well worth the trade off, however, it does show that the species is fine at higher temps, at higher nutrients/CO2.

This is counter to the claims, yet while I cannot prove why they die for many, I can prove without any doubt why they do not die.

IF adding 20ppm of NO3 kills them, why haven't mind ever died after doing this for years now? High traces? CO2? Temp?

Seems like fear mongering to me.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Spid]

Hi thanks for your inputs here. Here is what I have to share.

Shrimps from good source, after settled down and acclimatise well in your tank usually will do well given no major changes. What makes them so sensitive is the initial stage of acclimatisation. Without proper introduction, these shrimps will start dying off one by one.

Big stable tanks are usually the most important factor too to having a good population. Right now with a population of 40 i think its still manageable at your side but problems may start coming in when your population increases exponentially.

Inbreeding has its pros and cons and i had to agree good husbandry effort has to be practised. It can enhance the shrimp color and pattern but of course it will be make weaker. Usually it will be good to introduce crs of different sources after a few generations in the tank.

With outcrossing to either crs of different sources or goldens/whites, usually will bring about poor coloration in the F1s. An example is a golden gene crystal red vs a pure red crystal red where the formal is usually stronger in nature but poor in coloration, whereas a pure crs is much weaker in nature.

Yes indeed there are many factors to be consider when seeing shrimps died off mysteriously, but what I can said is do not add too much addictives, regular water changes accompany by good aeration should see you having a good population of happy shrimps.

Cheers.

[Plantbrain]

Hi thanks for your inputs here. Here is what I have to share.

Shrimps from good source, after settled down and acclimatise well in your tank usually will do well given no major changes. What makes them so sensitive is the initial stage of acclimatisation. Without proper introduction, these shrimps will start dying off one by one.

I think this is basic stuff here, this applies to fish also.
I do large frequent water changes, have since the 1980's. Some suggest doing 5-10% as "better", I routinely have done 70% or typically the 50%.
Some folks seem to think that's less stable, but it does not appear so, I lose less fish and shrimp than most. I do not put them in a "brand new tank" that's uncycled, no fish or shrimp go into such tanks nor should.

Also, basic common sense aquarium keeping here.
None of this has anything to do with "planted" tanks.
Planted tanks that are well set up and run right will have no issues.

I slow drip acclimate fish and shrimp.
Simple and easy. Then feed them well and keep an eye on them.

Big stable tanks are usually the most important factor too to having a good population. Right now with a population of 40 i think its still manageable at your side but problems may start coming in when your population increases exponentially.

I doubt it.
With some folks and their routines perhaps, but that's not the point of the thread here. I do large frequent water changes, just like discus folks often do. So even with higher bioloading, I still have the same results.

I do the extra work to avoid some potential issues, this way I can test things like CO2, NO3, temp and these other factors.

And then I can be sure they are fine and not stressed out from poor water care, overaloded system where detritus etc accummulate.Many folks kill shrimp for many reasons, it's only when you stay on top of things, have good habitats and methods can we rule out causes.

I have 2 tanks, one is a small 10 Gal, the other is 38 Gallon tank. I had them in a 20 Gal over the hot summer(get's well in the 40C's here for 3 months or so).

I agree that larger tanks have better characters and are more stable.
Each shrimp is not really much of a bioload it's only when they get really dense that it might become an issue, also, in a planted tank a lot of fish and shrimp waste is rapidly cycled, unlike many non planted tanks.

Inbreeding has its pros and cons and i had to agree good husbandry effort has to be practised. It can enhance the shrimp color and pattern but of course it will be make weaker. Usually it will be good to introduce crs of different sources after a few generations in the tank.

I'm suggesting here that it might be why some folks have very sensntive shrimp and others do not have any such troubles.

How does one verify high quality breeding method and shrimp?
I do not think you can, some folks might, but many certainly will not.
What I can do is use the species I have and test those to see about the other factors, like NO3, Temps, Trace elements and rule those out as possible sources.

I assume good aquarium care in general, good acclimatization, good water changes, stocking levels, mature well cycled and filtered tanks with good O2 levels etc. That I can do.

Then I'm left with the genetics...........these can be tested also if I know I have some from a poor inbred group and some from an outcrossed group.
I could also look at high grades vs low grades, but this does not tell me much about the genes themselves or the inbreeding etc, I can make some assumption, but they are not that safe.

With outcrossing to either crs of different sources or goldens/whites, usually will bring about poor coloration in the F1s. An example is a golden gene crystal red vs a pure red crystal red where the formal is usually stronger in nature but poor in coloration, whereas a pure crs is much weaker in nature.

Yes! This is what made them weaker in general to start with, if they keep inbreeding with some outcrossing, and many only care about $$$, and not having any poor color, then the groups gets progressively weaker and weaker.

Then very few people can keep them.

Seems that instead of going just for color in breeding and culling, they should consider the fitness of the shrimp and make them stronger environmentally. What good is a fish or shrimp that very few can keep even if they are pretty?
Not much..............

We have the control to do so with the breeding.

Yes indeed there are many factors to be consider when seeing shrimps died off mysteriously, but what I can said is do not add too much addictives, regular water changes accompany by good aeration should see you having a good population of happy shrimps.

Well... these are things that can be tested. I have, I already know and can predict low O2 levels, regular water changes's effects.

Additives as well, I'm focused on planted tank additives, NO3, CO2, traces mostly, larger ranges of temps and KH. These I can rule out now safely.

Through the process of eliminating each parameter that we suspect, we are left with ones that are not as easy to test. But it might had been possible to kill them with KNO3 dosing, but now I'm pretty certain, this cannot be true within 0-30ppm NO3 ranges over long time frames for both health and breeding.

Same for the other's listed above.
What I have not tested, is the genetics.

This is pretty tough to help folks that lose their shrimp since we have little way of knowing who bred them(we can ask, who knows if they will tell you the truth) and how the shrimp where bred.

But all is not lost here either............we can simple try and trade and get the widest ranging groups of CRS's from a wide range of sources.

Then keep them in different tanks and mix groups for breeding in a separate tank. With 4-6 groups, a lot more diversity and a more hardy shrimp can be sold, and offered.

Then we can work on breeding a nice sized CRS
Something that will not get eaten by many fish.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[silane]

These are pictures of a stream in China where some neocaridinal shrimps can be found.



What do you guess about the NO3 level, CO2 level and temperature?







Have you ever thought of producing plant that does not need NPK, CO2 and micro so I can cramp by shrimp tank with them?
Or produce 1 cm flowerhorn or discus so that they can be com with algae eating shrimps? Actaully 1cm red arowanna with CRS will be nice too.

[Plantbrain]

These are pictures of a stream in China where some neocaridinal shrimps can be found.

What do you guess about the NO3 level, CO2 level and temperature?

Are you saying that this is where this specific species and variety is from?

I cannot see CO2, NO3 or temp from a picture. Can you? hehe
I can guess, but that is it.

Since it's a stream, it can be anywhere from 4-5ppm CO2, up to 25ppm depending on location from a spring, type of geologic sediments, limestone etc or sandstone etc. NO3 could be anywhere from 0.2ppm to 10ppm. Temps, could be from a rather wide range since the system is a rather small stream and subjected to larger changes than say a larger lake or river. These are all guesses. I've measured many streams myself in natural and man made systems. The seidment is very rich in nutrients as evidence of the plants growing all over the place, while you cannot test the nutrients in the water, the shrimp are stil exposed as they grub around in the sediments where the nutrients leach from. Water column ppm's will not tell you what the shrimp are being exposed to. However, the old question of "what is BEST" does not mean that what you find in a natural system is the best place for the shrimp, plant or fish.

It just means that is what the shrimp, plant or fish has evolved to survive at at that particularly time and location in history. It DOES NOT imply that is what is "best". Agriculture is a classic example, the plants do a lot better under horticulture than they do in nature. Same for livestock. Same for aquaculture. So this arguement does not make the point that "nature is best" for aquaculture, which is what we often do as hobbyists. We might like the look, the aesthetics, but not the logic does not follow. Many aquarists assume it does, but they are mistaken.

Anyway, this species variety is not even natural anyway, it's an artifical variety, so such comparisons make little point.
We have altered the critter dramatically.

Have you ever thought of producing plant that does not need NPK, CO2 and micro so I can cramp by shrimp tank with them?
Or produce 1 cm flowerhorn or discus so that they can be com with algae eating shrimps? Actaully 1cm red arowanna with CRS will be nice too.

Larger and smaller dwarf fish varieties have been developed, long fin types, discus have, giant hybrid plants etc, various colorations have been bred into many species. Why not "size" for shrimp which breed like mad relative to many fish and still command a high price? Even 2x as large would be a worthy goal.

BTW larger Aros already can be kept with most shrimp species. See the site owners(Vinz) Aro tank with Amano shrimps Not many folks "bred" plants, they are mostly done clonally. Hybrid crosses can develop some traits.
Hard to breed plants for most, shrimps , you have no choice if you want more. Plants have options and I can always prune and trim to keep them small, try pruning a shrimp sometime, hehe. I do not think you will be successful.

You can stunt fish through feeding during the development stage, then no matter how much you feed them later, they will not fully develop to the max sizes. Sort of cruel and ethical issues arise, but the same can be said for poor breeding of CRS's.

But producing a plant that grows without ligth, nutrients and CO2 is rather pointless...........shrimp need food, so do plants, those waste from shrimp become the plant biomass, the issue is the needs of both should be considered if the goal is to keep them together. Not all 100% one side or the other.

Bare bottom tanks and plantless systems are not that aesthetic to most folks. To use you own images above, do you see a lot of plants there in the natural system or only a few in non nutrient, no CO2 systems? The soil in that stream is quite rich based on the plant growth. Folks often want communities, ecosystems, not a single species zoo. That's fine if that is the goal and that is said upfront.

Yes, I can breed more brood, get more production using bare bottom tanks, any breeder can, but what do I have to trade off for that? Space is limited in aquariums/homes etc, maybe I do not care at all about plants, then it does not matter. All I might want is shrimp. Then none of the plant part means much or the fish I want to keep.

But I do not and many other folks also don't, they want a nice looking planted display, with more varieties of fish. Not big monsters etc, but some decent sized fish and these shrimp also in a nice planted display. I made this goal relatively clear to start with. Otherwise there is no need to dose EI and test much. These are just some options in breeding, some can be done for plants and fish as well, but it's much easier to bred a larger CRS than it is to down size all 400 species of plants for a dwarf size as the 20,000 species of fish don't you think?

I do.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[silane]

Yes, this the the stream where alage eaters are found. I still have a bottle of the water, have not to any testing yet. Not to sure if there is much nutrient from the soil after years of year of running water from the mountain. Those plant are growing above water level, not from the water. With the constant running of water, the soil in water will much nutrient.

The only aquatic plant I saw as moss.. yes, floating moss. And some leave litter at the base, will they give 30ppm NO3? I doubt.

The pics give an idea that shrimps do not live in a planted tank with EI and do not has CO2 injection in the tank. It has almost limited of clean water.

Even CRS is bred in tanks, but that does not mean they can survive far from the enviroment their ancestors came from. Just like Eskimos, for generations they live in circumpolar region, they can tolerate cool more then others. But their body temperature is still 37C and like any other human beings. They still need (thick) clothing to keep them warm, they have yet to develop body warm protecting system after so many generations.

I dont see a point to create a CRS that is big enough not to be eaten, and it is a too far fetch idea, it is not going to happen in the next few decade or perhaps millennia or never. If large shrimps is so important to one to be put in a planted tank and not to be eat by fish and can do pretty well in planted tank, then they are choices of drawf crayfish.

So we better stick to choice of planted tank with CRS, or CRS with plant or a planted tank with fish for decades to come.

The internet has provide and share informtion of what can be done, and what cannot be done with your CRS.

Mother nature creates plants, shrimps and fish with millions of years of evolution to what they are today. But hobbyists wants to create a new biotop for them within hours or perhaps days. They want to put everything into a 1ft tank, they want all short of live stock to in their tank. If that is possible, we will be able to find algae eater shrimps (the caridinal or neocaridinal), together with wild guppies and perhaps flowerhorn in your drains.

Anyway, if EI does not work with high end CRS, why force CRS to work with it? Maybe someone should invent SI.

[Spid]

Hi Plantbrain,

Seems like there are some issues over this so called "EI" and crystal red shrimps.

Different breeder has different practices I guess, and they will find their own best way in keeping them.

A very well planted tank is always very much discourage for breeding shrimps like CRS. Reason being you have to take care of too many water parameters and has to balance it well. And if you have success in doing so, kudos to you.