Your Favourite Apistogramma!

[ggMing]

updates! enjoy people... HUAT ar!!!

[burpz]

Do a 3 tier setup. Then more space already!

If it was only so simple... Now I have 2 tanks in the room, when only supposed to have 1...

Then my wife says... In future, when we get a new place... can only have 1 tank... 6' tank with multiple partitions and levels?

[burpz]

i've got something similar as well marle!!!
white balance a bit off.. =P

genes, pics of adoketa will be up later... stay tuned...
p:s - i dislike people like you who take good pics of fishes... coz it does damage to hobbyist like me.. blerk** =P

Hehe... Can have 2 hobbies... keeping beautiful fishes and picking up photography...

[Fingerling]

updates! enjoy people... HUAT ar!!!

"ang ang, hai si lang"

The extension of the red throughout the body, is yours german bred Eliz as well?

[ggMing]

The extension of the red throughout the body, is yours german bred Eliz as well?

correct...

[stormhawk]

The best strain breed with the best. best and best. down the generation. just like how slaves were raised during the slavery days. they raise the slaves like cattle. btw, it was Ian of old KingFisher who taught me this theory. For this reason, they have the best runner LOLs..

Let's leave slavery out of this alright? Would you want to be considered akin to cattle as well? I think not. Those people were human as well.

The fish by that German breeder are line-bred specifically for a certain trait, in this case with his elizabethae - primarily to enhance the redness. You can do it yourself too, if you selectively pick fish amongst your batches of fry that show the best traits that you want, and breed them, with occasional out-crossing to other non-related fish to produce better looking progeny and keep the gene pool fresh. For this aspect, people tend to out-cross a tank-bred strain, with a wild specimen, to re-invigorate the bloodline.

[ggMing]

Let's leave slavery out of this alright? Would you want to be considered akin to cattle as well? I think not. Those people were human as well.

The fish by that German breeder are line-bred specifically for a certain trait, in this case with his elizabethae - primarily to enhance the redness. You can do it yourself too, if you selectively pick fish amongst your batches of fry that show the best traits that you want, and breed them, with occasional out-crossing to other non-related fish to produce better looking progeny and keep the gene pool fresh. For this aspect, people tend to out-cross a tank-bred strain, with a wild specimen, to re-invigorate the bloodline.

very well said..

[marle]

Question: Why are Wild Fishes different in physical attributes compared to our F1s and so on?

1) Is it because of the environment they are brought up in? If so, natural habitats can be replicated.

2) Inbreeding? What if we use Breeder A's F1 x another Breeder B's F1?

Won't this be something similar?

[burpz]

Breeder A's F1 x Breeder B's F1 -> New F1s with no inbreeding...

[marle]

why are Wilds so highly valued compared to F1s?

Their behaviour?

[burpz]

Supposedly purer bloodlines?

[ggMing]

[genes]

why are Wilds so highly valued compared to F1s?

Their behaviour?

Because it can be easy to breed but difficult to catch in the wild. Hence prices of wild stocks are higher compared to bred specimens.

[apistomaster]

why are Wilds so highly valued compared to F1s?

Their behaviour?

I have a slightly different take on this.
I prefer getting wild Apistogramma because they haven't been subjected to years of inbreeding and are generally sturdier more disease resistant than many commercial domestic lines.
I don't know about being easier bred, that isn't necessarily true. but wild Apistogramma ofter do spawn fairly soon after the have recovered from the stresses associated with the whole capture and distribution experience and often spawn soon after they have recovered. They often also die soon after breeding but at least if you managed to get that first generation from the wild pair, those F1 fish will never experience the stresses their parents did and make good founding stock for your tank raised line. It is easier to occasionally breed them with new wild caught fish to help ensure fairly good genetic diversity. Your F1 generation should be free of the parasites nearly every wild fish carries. This helps the TR fish to develop into stronger fish sine their immune systems aren't battling any of the parasites their parent may have been fighting. To me, this is why F1 are more desirable than lines that have been bred in captivity for a long time.
Many wild fish will actually be more difficult to breed because they will require more closely simulating their natural water conditions. Their descendants, being tank raised, are often a little more tolerant of different or less extreme water parameters than were the original wild fish.
These are just generalities. Not all Apistogramma are the same and some are always easier to breed than some other species regardless of whether they are wild or recent wild descendants.

I happen to prefer beginning with wild fish rather than commercially bred strains but if you want to raise some of the more colorful variants of domesticated strains you have no choice but to work with the selectively bred fish.

In the wild, most Apistogramma spawn early in life and may almost be considered annuals. They usually live many times longer in captivity than the typical one does in the wild. Despite this, it is best to breed them early because older pairs are often difficult to breed.

[stormhawk]

Question: Why are Wild Fishes different in physical attributes compared to our F1s and so on?

They are different since in the wild they have access to all sorts of food that we can never give in the tank environment. Foods like microscopic animals, detritus etc, or a particular species of algae that these fish like, but we are unable to replicate or culture at home.

1) Is it because of the environment they are brought up in? If so, natural habitats can be replicated.

It is also probably due to the wild environment, but at times, replicating their natural habitat can be difficult or just not feasible. As per the DATZ book, the natural habitat is usually a sandy bottom with a lot of leaf litter and maybe some twigs or branches depending on where the Apisto are from.

But having too much leaves rotting away in the tank can be displeasing to the eye, unless you are more of a biotope enthusiast.

2) Inbreeding? What if we use Breeder A's F1 x another Breeder B's F1?

Won't this be something similar?

Using that methodology, the subsequent spawn should be strong, as long as Breeder A's and B's fish are unrelated, healthy and not suffering from any genetic disorder, but from the same population/variant.

It's not considered inbreeding unless you rely on mating related fish like brother to sister (from the same spawn) or father to daughter, or mother to son.

[SCOPE]

Well said! Stormhawk! i totally agree!
Just to add on is that wild caught specimens are usually genetically stronger or richer as compare to f1 fishes or after.
In the wild, they do not breed in a confined environment as control by us.
My understanding from some collectors information is that they usually breed in a harem context....where the dominant male is not always the one which successfully bred with its breeding female that it had formed. There are usually sneaker males which act like females hiding besides the breeding females...they may be the first to get the eggs fertilized etc. In this way, the species offspring is usually genetically strongly as compared to home bred ones.
In other words, wild fishes usually produce better offspring as compare to bred ones for more generations.

[genes]

Many comments on genetics and such which anyone who wants to do some serious breeding project must understand.

Thats the reason always collect at least 2-3 pairs of the same fish (wild-caughts) if you really want to talk about breeding for line and quality. I have read that the minimum to maintain the line is at least 6 pairs. For myself, the max i went was 3 pairs. So guys, you need alot of tanks to do that. Tanks to house the breeding pairs, tanks to house the fries from different pairs. Tanks to cross the adults, tanks to cross the fries from different pairs and culling of fries... It takes lots of discipline and effort, not to mention space to prevent inbreeding and maintaining the genetics/line. Old birds like benetay and yorky taught me alot on this. I had the luxury of 11 tanks at home and >20 tanks at another place when i tired breeding these fishes.

Singapore context wise... not many people have succeeded in doing that where space is of such a constraint. Perhaps its time for you guys to think of setting up a fishroom in your house? Or rent a farm? So guys, time to sink deeper!

Here are some of the combi i have tried out for the past 4 years, try it out if you have the tanks and see the results of the fries for yourself.
1) Wild caught X F1
2) F1(a) X F1(b)
3) F1(a) X F1(a) - inbreeding of F1 from same brood = F2
4) F1 X F2
5) Wild caught X F2
A point to note, anything beyond F2 is usually crap for apistos (at least for my personal QA).

Couple of years back there was a group of hobbyists that talked about forming a group that will concentrate on breeding and maintaining the line for the Ap. Wilhelmi (purple-chin). Wonder how it went now. Probably didn't have the discipline to pull it through too. Maybe you guys should start doing something similar.

Here's a pic of my Ap. Wilhelmi from years back. Picked it up as a not so attractive juv. at 2cm among a batch. Was amazed by the transformation as it grew into adulthood. More poisoning!!!

[SCOPE]

wow...real poisonous lah! Genes is throwing out his poisonous pictures again!

[mobile2007]

Indeed genes' pics can be very tempting. Don't know how many being poisoned by his photos. haha. Also, very comprehensive information on selective breeding. Hope we have more gurus to share more their experiences on this area.

I make a very crude conclusion after reading this. The central idea of this kind of selective breeding is to generate as many offsprings as possible. The more offsprings, chances of mutation getting higher. Also by crossing different sources ( wild, different parents, different generations), the variance increased and so are the mutation.

Singapore, maybe difficult. No space, no time, no money. Also, the source very narrow.

[barmby]

Good to know. Read and forget and not think of attempting it.. BECAUSE:-

Do you have the passion ? He is only talking about one type and it is already an uphill task. Can do. But do you have time to do ? do you have the motivation ?

11 tanks + another 20 tanks to keep up the breeding project. Moreover, it is ONE breeding project only.

Already, I have seen friends squeeze one pair of apisto in a puny tank thereby killing them.

"6 pairs? 3 pairs ? Siao boh. My kids next week got common test... "