celticfish's Hypancistrus zebra pleco (L046) thread 02 - The Great Blight

[celticfish]

After the spawning alpha male got killed all has been quiet in my zebra tanks.
However, I have noticed an increase in activities since last Wednesday evening (23 April 200.

I have my fish separated into two groups as follows:
Tank A - 6 pcs in the top tier
Tank B - 9 pcs in the bottom tier


TANK A
The "new" alpha from (bruiser) my latest group was moved up into the original group.
Along with the confirmed alpha female (lilith) and two suspect females (white female and omega female), and two "firm" males (white male and pale male).
Since last week the smallest suspect femle (omega female) has been ramming herself at the cave entrance to get in, fiesty little fellas this one!
Sunday day, I thought omega would make it in the cave.
But after some snooping... it was the "firm male", pale male, that got in!!
Here's the funny thing, before this the alpha female was on top of the white male's cave while the pale "male" on around bruiser's cave.
After pale "male" went in the cave all the other fish seem to congregate at bruiser's cave.
I suppose time can only tell if the white dove is coming or the raven...



TANK B
Beta male from my original group was moved down for his own safety.
I thought bruiser might send him to meet adam (original alpha male).
There are more pieces in this tank as the smallest ones are not quite of breeding size yet.
And they had to be housed somewhere...
btw, other than beta male, all fish in this tank are suspect-"somethings".
ie. they are either suspect-males or suspect-females.
On that basis its a 7:2 basis of males to female ratio.
Just my luck again a "suspect male" has gone in the cave with the beta male...


A little fast forward to the early morning of today...
All fishes are still in the respective caves.
Bruiser and beta male are trying their hardest to keep the "offending" fish in their cave.
So right now I really don't know if I should be expected a KIA of "firm"/"suspect" males this evening or few days...
Or, the unveiling of a "happy" new L046 couple/s...


PS - Yes, they all have names and I do recognize them individually.
However, I am unable to sex them even if my life depended on it!!!

[Gecko]

That was fun! Ir, maybe everytime you have a suspect male, just consider it a female, you might have found a new way to sex them

On a serious note, if you can look into the cave without disturbing them too much, if it is a alpha wannabe, it would be wedged against the end and you will see the body turning white from being eaten alive...

I am pretty sure you have females trapped inside as juvenile male would only make the mistake of entering the cave when the alpha is out, not trying hard to get in when he is in.

Looking forward to good news, 2 spawns no less...

Cheers

[eeeeemo]

hey guys. nice update irwin. i wonder if i can pay a visit to both of your tanks and ask some questions. for me.. most of the time the only lights that get to my tank is ambient light.. and my curtains are always down. its hard for me to observe their behavior!

occasionally il wake up to the fishes in different caves from before i went to sleep. but the male which ate his clutch of eggs the last time always maintained his cave.. female is always on top of his cave as well.. but i just cant trigger them to spawn again... how????

honestly, i have NEVER seen a female get trapped before.. the reason why they spawned that time was cause i completely ignored them.. except to dump in bloodworms for dinner.


irwin. i copied your set up! but i have 6 L46 in a 2ft. should i reduce it to 3 (2M 1F) per 2ft? since i am sure about the the alpha male and female.

if you can take a photo of their genitals...

this is what i suspect:

female


male


HOWEVER... the female in this picture displays a male behavior, always in a cave..
but its genital is the same shape as the alpha female...male in the picture is a confirmed male.

heres the top view of both fishes!
suspect female (male behavior) on the left, confirmed male (probably beta) on the right.


here is top view of alpha female on the left and suspect female on the right


note that the fishes in the last picture have the same body shape!!!
and the alpha female is definitely a female!!

[celticfish]

@ Gecko,

IF it really turns out that way I might have a "formula"!
That's the thing, if it was omega female I wouldn't be so worried.
The "firm" male, pale male, has not tried getting into the alpha male's cave before.

I've also been taking picture of and staring at their sex organs... wait... that didn't come out right.
I've been observing thier reproductive organs and still come out without "positive" results.
The "oval" versus "nubby" papillia and all... *ARGH*


@ eeeeemo,
"Patience Daniel San... patience..." kekeke
Okay, back to your questions...

LIGHTS:
If you read my thread on the first spawning I got.
My lighting regime was about 6 PM to 3 AM (yes, me is a 'might bird').
They spawned in this light timing.

The "second season" when my original alpha male spawned again was 12 noon to 6 PM.
During this time I switched the timing again to 7 AM (to wake me up ) to 2 PM.

Also, when I am home in the evnings or weekend the light is on all the time I'm home.
The recent activities I post in this thread was observed while I'm having a meal, watching T.V. or just goofing-off in my room.
They displayed all the behaviour mentioned in post one through the day.
I do, however, notice that from evening onwards the activities got more frequent.

So from my own experience lighting isn't really a factor to observed them.
Just need the patience to be in front of the tank long enough...


"MUSICAL CAVES":
Yes this does happen.
Especially when you add new fish or the fish are new to the tank/setup.
Everyone wants to try out the "latest" cave, so to speak...
Once the "honeymoon" period of acclimatizting to the new tank is there though...
The clear alpha will make a choice and his stand there.
But like humans they can change their minds too!
This I noticed when added to the group and/or did some reshuffling.
The "top dawg" will decide and stay put.
Change his mind and relocate.
And then suddenly decide to go back to base again... go figure! *sigh*


NUMBER OF FISH IN TANK:
Reference my original thread again.
When they first spawned there were 13 pcs in the tank.
7 adult size and 6 sub-adults.
So I don't think what you have in your tank is "uncomfortable".


INTERPRETATION OF YOUR SPAWNING THREAD:
Now to the meat...
From what I read about your thread... I'm gonna be direct hor?...
You made quite a few boo boo's.
First, I think you moved your fish "wholesale" from the top tier to the lower tier" without acclimatization (major number one "no no" in fishkeeping).
Two, If you had one egg ballin hand and one in the cave, leave it be.
Then you will be able to obeserve the ones kicked-out and leave the rest ion the cave for the "new" daddy to learn.
This also give you "two chances" for the brood.
But, hey, if you don't make boo-boo's in the hobby how are you going to learn!


FEMALE CYCLE TIME:
If we assume your thread date as your female's laying date...
This mean ealiest, in my experice, 15th March plus 24 days = 9 April.
Latest in a cycle would be 15th March plus 28 days = 11 April.
That means... "I sense a disturbance in the Force...".
Again, I think your hasty transfer from the top tier to bottom tier has affected them.
I'm assuming that the differeces in tank water parameters are affecting them here plus the "shock" of the transfer.
btw the water "shock" could be what killed your eggs but you did mention seeing the embryo so I'm not too certain on how your eggs died.


SAVING GRACE:
They've "Done it!".
So they've gotta do it again!
Feedback from zebra breeders is that the first is the hardest and once they started the hardest is behind.
So rest well in that knowledge and don't mess with them anymore!


I reckon if you left them be like you did, for a while, they will get back with the program.
At the rate its raining in SG, I'm guessing this will be a/near "La Nina" year...
Layman's terms, good weather for fish to BREED!
SO, just sit back, do nothing.
And WAIT...


Wow, I should start a new thread for you...

The "suspect male" body shape, in particular the head area, is the usual shape that throws a lot of keepers off.
My "suspect male" with bruiser has this shape too but the cheek odontodes is "lusher" than my original alpha male's!
How to confirm their sex with such contardictory signs?!?... *sigh*.

*CROSS FINGERS AND TOES HE DOESN'T SEE DEAD L046 TONIGHT*...

[eeeeemo]

wow! thanks for the advises! i knew it was a hasty transfer.. =( but i only have one pump and one day... however i made sure that 70% of the water belonged to the old tank. it was a mistake..if i hadn't shifted them i would have seen small zebbies around the tank in around 10days! =(
but i haven't touched their tank since then! will take a picture of the tank soon.. you'll find my tank looking very very familiar ...

i am not uncomfortable with the overcrowding.. but i was thinking in the sense of setting up another colony... a zebra tank can only have one spawner right? so if i have a suspect female.. should i set up another tank for her? i won't touch the alpha male and female as well as leaving a weak male to be dominated by the alpha male.. then transfer the beta male + suspect female + another unknown into another tank.. is 3 enough to induce spawning behavior?

anyway.. my alpha female has a very lush cheek.... its really very difficult to tell. if you ever shift them.... take a good photograph of their genitals. its the only way to be sure..

[Savant]

This is very exciting and yet at the same time very disturbing. Hope they turn out to be the couple they ought to be...

[celticfish]

Hehehe! I'm a HAPPY CAMPER!!!
Bruiser and the "suspect male" are a pair!... OMG what am I saying!!!
And "Thar BEE eggs!!!"

Yes, like Adam's first spawn one sole egg was kicked out for me to look.
The kicked out egg looks unviable as its clouding.
But it's the biggest sized egg I've seen so far for my L046's...
The egg ball doesn't look big but hey, I'm certainly not complaining!
Too add to the mix, omega female is STILL trying to get in with the eggs in place!!
Wow... this is a first for me.


Beta male is still with the "suspect".
But in the grand scheme of things... that's good "He" is not dead!
Let's see what happens tomorrow... Stay tuned boys and girls! (I didn't wait till tomorrow!)

Now, how the heck am I going to sleep! (We already know the answer to this one!)


This portion after 2 A.M.
Oh, dang!
I think he might be shooting blanks!
I just fished out another cloudy egg...
And the "suspect male" still looks gravid!
Its gonna be a long night...

Shucks! Make that three eggs!
But omega female is still at it!
Bruiser seems to be a stud in the making though...

Okay, here's another unusual observation.
The "suspect male's" anal area looks a little reddish!
Hmmm... I'm not going to say it but the adult folks know!

[celticfish]

I've found a total of five eggs all kicked out.
One is already opaque and I don't think the rest are viable too...
No more eggs in the cave.

Omega is still trying to ram herself in as I type.
Only two things can happen with her persistence...
She's going to lay eggs or it will be her death sentence.
I do suspect she interrupted the spawning as the, now confirmed female, still looks gravid.
I might just have to get her out and let the two get on with the program... hmm...

Remember I said the alpha female has eyes on the other firm white male?
Uh-huh... passes have been made at him!
Overall everyone is rather excited in this tank, I see lots of tail wagging.
(I think I was wagging along with them in all my excite but cannot really remember now...)


Beta still has the other fish trapped.
I don't see him eating it alive so that's a very good sign.
Maybe he's got Sade playing in his cave?


@ eeeeemo,
No worries about the tank looking similar.
Otherwise I wouldn't have post my pictures!
First golden rule of fishkeeping is "look fast and act slow"...

One pair is sufficient to spawn.
Two spawning pair in a tank is possible but most reports I've heard are at least 3 ft or larger.
There's not much real estate to run in a 2 ft tank...
Two others, locally, have more than one spawning pair in their tanks, 4 ft.
But I do believe "sexual tension" is required/good for these fish and that means for both sexes.
My belief is, though I cannot prove it, they seem to live "better" in a colony with a social structure.


@ savant,
Thanks for for well wishes.
Turned out okay! *phew*
Just to add on this point.
Getting KIA's is part and parcel of breeding hypancistrus and like.
When spawning behaviour starts aggression rears its head.
And the ideal spawning choice, one way in and one way out, doesn't help too.
All too often a sub-adult male will wonder into a cave that an alpha has vacated to feed and gets itself into trouble.
This I have found out a couple of times already with an alpha male as a victim to boot!

[yorky]

Celticfish, this is one interesting breeding journal.
Almost akin to a romantic novel if it keeps going on.
Well done!

[celticfish]

@ yorky,
Credit goes to the fish again.
Without them I wouldn't know what to write!



UPDATE
Just converted the pictures of the eggs.
In comparison with the alpha female that spawn first these eggs are larger visually to me.
I have placed them under a ruler for judgement of size.
Its 5 mm in diameter, go measure the picture if you want to make sure...
Should pale female, now confirmed, continue to spawn I would reckon her egg count easily hit the 20's.
She is visibly much larger and bulkier than lilith the alpha female.


Picture of the five eggs.
You can already see the clouding in the eggs.
The snails are going to have very expensive caviar today...



With a ruler for judgement of size.

[Gecko]

Great feedback Ir. The only 2 cents I would add is that females are also known to hide in caves. Also, fish are just like individuals with their own habits and likes. I on my tank lights only when I feel like viewing, no fixed timing, etc. There are general practices which generally will work....I concur with Ir, "act slow".

[eeeeemo]

oh my goodness..... please teach me how to trigger them!!!!!

[leeruisheng]

That's cool celticfish. The eggs looks like sago pearls. And a damm expensive one.

[celticfish]

@ eeeeemo,
I really didn't do much.
My routine was the same.
Only thing I conciously changed was the grouping right after Adam's early demise...
Believe me, if I could "trigger" them and post this thread right before... I'd resign from my day job and breed L046 full-time!
The posting one day before the event can be attributed to pure luck on my part.
But I'd like to believe that as one's experience grows in the hobby one's "skill" grows accordingly.
Thus one is able to better predict what could happen next from observation and understanding of the particular species.
One more ace I have is the weather!
Its been raining quite consistently these pass few weeks.
I'm sure that helped quite a bit.


@ leeruisheng,
You can say that again!
And as far as I've seen damn big ones too!


UPDATE:
As mentioned earlier the whole spawn of five eggs went bad.
I'm not too concern about that, yet, as most reports mention that the first spawn is normally a "trail run".
The female being larger also means she has been carrying eggs for a while too.
Do they go "bad"?
I don't know but I'm guessing a little clearing of "old stock" doesn't hurt.

Surprising thing is that bruiser vacated the cave and alpha femaleis there...
Omega looked like she got roughed up.
She has a reddish spot on the right flank of her face.
Sounds like she got slapped for interrupting the.... (you fill it up here, okay?)

Beta male is on his own though another one tried to get in.
Guess he'll need to try another CD next time.

Seems to have quite down a little.
And I REALLY REALLY need to get to bed.
Maybe tomorrow will be better?
Lord knows... Lord knows...

Good night peeps!

[celticfish]

Well, most of "tomorrow" is gone...
Woke up this morning to a really funny sight, at least for me.
Initially I thought bruiser shrunk in size.
A couple of blinks later I realized it was omega female!
Its quit hilarious that she managed to evict/scare bruiser away.
If you can see the size difference between them... the randy little runt!
I saw him cowering beside his cave, very unusual sight.
Only get to catch him out of the cave when I return in the evening and turn on the lights.
Otherwise I just see his tail...

I've also decided to change "pale male's" name to "Blue-Eyes female" ("female" suffixed just to make sure the older folks don't confuse her with Frank Sinatra).
Not the ratio in this tank and suddenly turned around to 2:4!
The two males in this tank are "really" males, I hope...
The females break down is - 2 x confirmed, 1 x high suspect (omega) and 1 x suspect.


Transition to the other tank, it now looks like beta male has changed strategy, he's got Barry White on CD.
And the cool cat's got someone else in there now.
I cannot ID for sure as the rascal's got the cave blocked-up pretty well.
Only thing I can tell is this one is a smaller fish than the one before.
At this time we'd like to ask all the little boys and girls to, please cover your eyes thank you.
Hopefully he watched the music video for the "moves" too...

[celticfish]

Photo ID of Blue-Eyes the "suspect male" now turned confirmed female.


This is the look that threw me off.
The head looks like a spade from this angle.



A little more female looking here in body shape.



Here the body is is the typical female shape.
But the bumps just in front of the eyes again hint at another male trait.
However the pectoral odontode growth is very minimal too.



Even from a frontal view the cheek odontodes look male in the lushness of growth.
Some males do not have growth anywhere near her's.



Same even growth of cheek odontodes on both sides!



Remember what they said in "Zebra sexing 101" about the cheek odontodes not growing past the pectoral fin in females?
Throw that book away...
If I was pressed for a sex with this picture - MALE!



Genitalia papillia (hope I spelt this correctly, is very clear too.
Its almost nubby is shape rather than a rounded "V"
Check the bulge on the right hand side...

[Gecko]

I see what you mean!

My wife choose zebras by viewing from the top, if both the same size, the broad one according to her is female. She is right here....

[celticfish]

Disaster in the tank.
Just realized right after my previous post that they all had rotting fins and some a flim over their eye.
Some of them didn't even react when I tried to check if they were among the living...
They were also breathing really fast.
Did a 50% water change immediately and put in extra aeration.
So far after about 3 hours they seem better.
At least they are moving around a little now.

I have no idea what happened and thank God it only happened in this tank.
The other tank is, so far, alright and still squabbling with one another.
So here you have it an excellent examlple of the ups and downs of fish keeping... *sigh*

[Savant]

Oh no!!

Hope they get better soon. I read somewhere long time ago that Plecos are rather sensitive to medication. Which ones are you using?

[celticfish]

Yes, plecos are sentitive to most medication.
I was told that you should use half the dosage for them is you don't know if the medication is pleco safe.
Melafix, Primafix and Waterlife Myxazin are used at full dosage without fear.
Seems to be quite a popular and pleco safe medications.

Thing is I don't believe in medication until its clear cut diagnosis.
Most time I depend on water changes and the heater.
This has clear them of ick and orange blisters when I first got them.
Whats going on now is totally new to me and I cannot figure it out...