Seeking for Worms

[shentake]

hi all

i have aps fry, notho egg, and gardneri

and i am seeking white worm and grindal worm

any one have it?

[mozaqua]

Have lots of Grindal worms but I am in Bangkok... Maybe one of the local guys could hook you up with a culture starter.

White worms from what I hear are great, but they need a lower temperature. So not very ideal for warm climates like ours.

I have found if you start with micro worms, then work up to grindal, followed by adult brine shrimp that works well for me.

[RonWill]

...and i am seeking white worm and grindal worm

Grindal worms can be cultured in a cool dark location in your home but white worms need way cooler temps, like in a wine chiller or fridge. I no longer maintain any cultures but perhaps Mosiah might be able to help.

Have lots of Grindal worms but I am in Bangkok...

Mosiah (correct me if I've gotten the name wrong... sorry!),
Since there's an interest in grindals, I'm hoping that you might be game in trial shipping some of 'em grubs over to SG. If need be, I will remit you payment via Paypal transfer. In the past, I've successfully shipped grindals to HK & USA.

Personally, and despite just having a trio of Chromaphyosemion splendopleure "Tiko", an occasional buffet of grindals should do them good. Perhaps that might even trigger them to lay me some eggs!!

Since there appears to be an interest in culturing live foods, I dug up some old threads for easy reading;

Grindal Worms in Useful Amounts
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=49591

Cultures in Breather Bags
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=49592

Grindal culturing with synthetic media
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=48366

Grindal culturing on synthetic media, with valued guidance from "RJ".
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/fi...ultureNEW.html

Grindal worm cultures - the international shipping of these, starts around post #41 (#45 is hilarious!!)
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=48200

...and yeah, reading past posts is quite heartening and I'm really glad to have penned all that down to share.

If any hobbyists here, even non-killiekeepers, are culturing live foods, don't just lurk! I'd be interested to hear how you guys & gals are doing with 'em.

[mozaqua]

Grindal worms can be cultured in a cool dark location in your home but white worms need way cooler temps, like in a wine chiller or fridge. I no longer maintain any cultures but perhaps Mosiah might be able to help.

Mosiah (correct me if I've gotten the name wrong... sorry!),
Since there's an interest in grindals, I'm hoping that you might be game in trial shipping some of 'em grubs over to SG. If need be, I will remit you payment via Paypal transfer. In the past, I've successfully shipped grindals to HK & USA.

Personally, and despite just having a trio of Chromaphyosemion splendopleure "Tiko", an occasional buffet of grindals should do them good. Perhaps that might even trigger them to lay me some eggs!!

Since there appears to be an interest in culturing live foods, I dug up some old threads for easy reading;

Grindal Worms in Useful Amounts
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=49591

Cultures in Breather Bags
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=49592

Grindal culturing with synthetic media
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=48366

Grindal culturing on synthetic media, with valued guidance from "RJ".
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/fi...ultureNEW.html

Grindal worm cultures - the international shipping of these, starts around post #41 (#45 is hilarious!!)
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=48200

...and yeah, reading past posts is quite heartening and I'm really glad to have penned all that down to share.

If any hobbyists here, even non-killiekeepers, are culturing live foods, don't just lurk! I'd be interested to hear how you guys & gals are doing with 'em.

Ron,

Sure I can send some Grindals, or micro-worms out. I think it would be a good idea to have some sort of live food culture exchange on the forum. A lot of people lose their cultures now and then for different reasons. It would be nice if we could trade different cultures with other forum members.

I got my grindals from a guy in the US, the shipping plus culture cost was a bit much. Also I already lost my vinegar eel culture never got it very productive in the first place though, maybe I should have used apple cider vinegar instead of regular vinegar?

Still fighting the moina trying to get them going again has been difficult. I had a thriving culture then after I moved they died out.
Hopefully when I restart the culture from the resting eggs it will last longer without the other critters out competing them.

Grindal worms should survive just about any shipping method, since I frequently find some in batches of killi eggs from US, Canada, and Europe .
But I can put them in a small breather bag to be safe.

Regards,
Mosiah (or Mo for short )
I find it is easier for people in Thai to say Mo, since the alphabet is different than English.

[RonWill]

Hi Mosiah,
Although I don't maintain any live cultures now, I still believe in a fair trade. Nice sized basters are somewhat of a rarity here (not sure if that's the case in BKK) and I can ship off two basters in exchange for the grindals (see Bulb syringe).

You can pack the grindals as described in the earlier links or whichever way you're comfortable with. Last I recall, my killie backup was maintaining both microworm and Walter-worm cultures, so I'm covered for that food size. Let me know what you think.

About vinegar eels (VE), I've always used Heinz cider vinegar, never regular vinegar aka acetic acid. Before I inoculate the cultures, I'd pop in a couple cubes of apples as it is my belief that VEs feed as the cubes break down and harvesting VEs is easy if you know how. I should have some pics of the 'harvester' using test tubes. I'll dig into the archives and see what I can come up with.

[mozaqua]

The 60cc baster could come in handy. Right now I am using a 10cc syringes with an airline stuck to the end .

I have seen the Walter worms for sale on AB but not sure if they are any better than micro worms?

As for the Vinegar I used natural white vinegar not the regular artificial stuff, and put a potato in it since I could not find an apple at the time I think it was not productive because not enough oxygen.
The culture died off because I closed the lid too long during transport to my new place, the little guys must have suffocated.

Ok, PM me about the worm trade.

Not sure how long it will take to subculture these, but I find once the soil is aged it is easy to sub out. Have 3 cultures going right now in plastic food boxes about 25x30cmx 5cm high. I punch a few small holes in the lid, no holes in the bottom works well if you don't overfeed. Also one in a smaller box that I started as my first culture last year, with holes at the top and bottom. I used the spent peat from my old peat water softening bucket. I use rechargeable cation resin now for the water treatment, so new cultures have coconut coir instead.

I find feeding grains to the worms is more stable than high protein foods. Once I fed some spirulina powder to the worms and the next day found they grew VERY fast! So fast that they ran out of oxygen and died! There were holes in the lid too, but the worms clog them! Also the high protein food causes unwanted pest like mites and other insects...eew
I think it is better to add some vitamins to grain like oatmeal or rice cereal to increase its nutrition, rather than feeding fish food directly to the worms.
Worms are high in protein no matter what they eat if you ask me.
Occasionally I will add a pinch of yeast to temporarily boost production...but do so sparingly or suffer the stench of dead worms.

[RonWill]

Mosiah,
The baster is good for many things. Imagine loading it up with moina and you go squirt squirt squirt... and you're done feeding fry tanks!!

For grindals, do consider using synthetic media with the 'bug bag' as per earlier links. Much cleaner and easier harvesting. Give priority to gaseous exchange over humidity and personally, I'd avoid high protein foods (I plan to use up loads of expired fish flakes!!). Ship culture when you feel is stable.

PM sent. Basters packed and if time allows, I'd drop it off tomorrow.

Edit: Package sent this morning. You should receive it... probably a week's time? Enjoy!!

[mozaqua]

Mosiah,
The baster is good for many things. Imagine loading it up with moina and you go squirt squirt squirt... and you're done feeding fry tanks!!

For grindals, do consider using synthetic media with the 'bug bag' as per earlier links. Much cleaner and easier harvesting. Give priority to gaseous exchange over humidity and personally, I'd avoid high protein foods (I plan to use up loads of expired fish flakes!!). Ship culture when you feel is stable.

PM sent. Basters packed and if time allows, I'd drop it off tomorrow.

Edit: Package sent this morning. You should receive it... probably a week's time? Enjoy!!

Interesting about the synthetic media, I have not tried that one yet. Did you use the green scrubbers? I think it would be more stable if there was some peat at the bottom instead of only water though. That way they will not drown if they get stuck in the bottom. I have also considered trying vermiculite, but not tried yet.

I'll have to try those another time though.
I just started a new Sub-culture for you. I will send it out when there are a some big ones for re-subbing. Probably in a few days it will be ready. I am only using coconut peat for this one, as I ran out of regular peat. Not sure how stable the synthetic media is for shipping either.

I find if the culture is started gradually and allowed to age before you start feeding significant amounts, it is more stable. Probably due to the bacteria, and worms metabolism.
I have kept a few cultures alive for about 6-weeks + without feeding! If you feed small portions less often they will be smaller, and can go longer without food. This is especially useful between killi hatches, when you don't need them for a while. Then when you're ready to use them, sprinkle some oatmeal, and in a day or two lots of big worms!
I wish micro-worms were that easy...

Regards

[shentake]

thx for the replies.

any idea for you that stay in singapore, so i can get the whiteworm

i stay in jakarta, indonesia

[TyroneGenade]

I find feeding grains to the worms is more stable than high protein foods. Once I fed some spirulina powder to the worms and the next day found they grew VERY fast! So fast that they ran out of oxygen and died!

I breed mostly Nothos and need to feed heavily and high protein food. But I also want to ensure my fish get enough vitamins and essential amino acids and fats so I feed my worm cultures on spirulina flake. Spirulina is an excellent source of essential amino acids etc... This food is not high protein (and the Nothos don't like) and the worms do well on it. They actually turn greem :-) I have found this to work well.

I do not have the problems you describe with rapid growth of the worms and deaths. I believe this has more to do with the fouling of the substrate than the food. I'm using a very airy-mix with some shell grit added to ensure that the pH doesn't crash. Keeping the culture moist rather than wet also helps.

If the culture is very wet, bacteria and other microbes will quickly use the high protein (calorie) food and produce a lot of acid and CO2. This is more likely the real problem.

Kind regards

[mozaqua]

I breed mostly Nothos and need to feed heavily and high protein food. But I also want to ensure my fish get enough vitamins and essential amino acids and fats so I feed my worm cultures on spirulina flake. Spirulina is an excellent source of essential amino acids etc... This food is not high protein (and the Nothos don't like) and the worms do well on it. They actually turn greem :-) I have found this to work well.

I do not have the problems you describe with rapid growth of the worms and deaths. I believe this has more to do with the fouling of the substrate than the food. I'm using a very airy-mix with some shell grit added to ensure that the pH doesn't crash. Keeping the culture moist rather than wet also helps.

If the culture is very wet, bacteria and other microbes will quickly use the high protein (calorie) food and produce a lot of acid and CO2. This is more likely the real problem.

Kind regards

The problem is not really PH, since I use hardened peat, or add sodium bicarb sometimes. Actually I have seen grindals living in pure peat, probably very low PH.
I keep my worms at the same temp as my fish room 28-31C. If you live in a cooler climate than the worms will not reproduce at exponential rates like they tend to do here. Thus you would less likely see a population boom/crash overnight.

Spirulina can be fed if it is very small amounts and only again after the worms have finished all of it. Yes, this is due to bio-load, and oxygen. I have since put more holes in the cultures, and have not had any crashes.
Even if I feed spirulina or yeast occasionally. Also add vitamins, but mix it with grain food in small amounts. Too much vitamins in the mix is a recipe for mold. Another problem in warm climates is Mold...it can infect everything much more quickly than in cooler climates. I have since adjusted my culture method, and have no problems with the Grindals now.

Culturing micro-worms on the other hand is very time consuming. Have to restart a new culture every week. I have tried many other methods for microworm cultures but still find them difficult to keep longer than 2 weeks per culture. I would like to try some vinegar eels again. Before I was not able to find apple cider vinegar, which is now available at Lotus super market.

[RonWill]

Culturing micro-worms on the other hand is very time consuming. Have to restart a new culture every week. I have tried many other methods for microworm cultures but still find them difficult to keep longer than 2 weeks per culture

2 weeks is ridiculous, when it should last at least 2 months!! What are you using for the re-sub? I've found that a thick oatmeal mix (so thick that when you flip it upside-down, nothing will drop) plus pure worms, swabbed from the sides and clean of old medium, yields the best result.

When a layer of what appears to be 'mold skin' forms on the surface, I'd use a spoon and give the medium a good mix (by this time, it's usually a slurry). Incidentally, every time I swirl the mix, a population boom will follow.

One more thing... since microworms live mostly near the surface, a 6inch thick oatmeal mix isn't gonna make a d@mn difference when ONE inch will do. Microworm cultures need to breathe too and fruit flies love 'em!! If you hate the sight of wriggling maggots (which I use as food anyway), stuff the breathing holes with cotton (or a bigger hole, sealed with those fancy breathable micro-thin bandages).

[RonWill]

any idea for you that stay in singapore, so i can get the whiteworm . i stay in jakarta, indonesia

Frans,
Unless you stay in Puncak or Bandung, where it's much cooler than Jakarta, you can forget about white worms! Your own fish-fridge or air-conditioned room 24/7 will work but most of the worms won't make the trip (given the weather and the efficiency of the postal system).

[shentake]

but i think, if we can put in the bag with dry ice or ice, like thermos or something may be

do you own it RonWill? i see you are stay in malaysia

[RonWill]

but i think, if we can put in the bag with dry ice or ice, like thermos or something...

Oh come on, Frans! Let's be practical. Believe me when I say that swapping ice packs is something you'll tire of very quickly.... been there, done that for planted tanks!!

Even if you have a wine chiller, having the worms survive the trip is very questionable. Long ago, I did an order for white worms (despite what others advised against) and when the package arrived, I wished I never opened it! Pppphhhheeeeeeewww!! Not a smell you'll likely to forget and no, I don't maintain any cultures at the moment.

BTW, Malaysia is my neighbor up north.

[TyroneGenade]

The problem is not really PH, since I use hardened peat, or add sodium bicarb sometimes.

Eek! You may as well be adding salt (sodium chloride). As the bicarbonate is used up only the sodium ion remain. This will make life very difficult for any little worm.

Never the less, your "hardened peat" experience is interesting. Maybe it is an aeration problem.

One more thing... since microworms live mostly near the surface, a 6inch thick oatmeal mix isn't gonna make a d@mn difference when ONE inch will do. Microworm cultures need to breathe too and fruit flies love 'em!! If you hate the sight of wriggling maggots (which I use as food anyway), stuff the breathing holes with cotton (or a bigger hole, sealed with those fancy breathable micro-thin bandages).

I use white bread. Put a slice in a tub. Pour over a little yeast mixed with sugar water and add a bit of culture. When the slice is gone, add another... You can continue for a few slices until the culture sours. This method doesn't stink, which is great! You can keep it in your fishroom.

[Bybloz]

I use white bread. Put a slice in a tub. Pour over a little yeast mixed with sugar water and add a bit of culture. When the slice is gone, add another... You can continue for a few slices until the culture sours. This method doesn't stink, which is great! You can keep it in your fishroom.

And I'll try this too! Thanks Tyrone

[TyroneGenade]

I recently published a full account in the BKA Killi News. If you ask Jim Warner very nicely he may share it, otherwise: JOIN THE BKA!

[RonWill]

I use white bread. Put a slice in a tub. Pour over a little yeast mixed with sugar water and add a bit of culture

Tyrone, is a specific yeast preferred (eg. champagne, brewers', etc) or will any do. I'm somewhat wary of sugar water since this is gonna attract ants... lots of them, at least at my place.

Is Jim Warner by any chance related to the late Ed Warner? Perhaps you can have a word with Jim for permission to the article?

[TyroneGenade]

Hello Ronnie,

It was suggested to me to use brewers yeast, though champagne would probably work too. What is important is that the yeast are alive (and not dead like for bakers yeast) as they have to grow and feed the microworms (which eat them).

I mix about 1 table spoon of sugar into 200 mL of water and add a 1/4 tsp of yeast, stir and let stand a few minutes so the yeast "wake up" and then pour it over the bread. I then add my starter to that (a about 1 table spoon per slice). Then the waiting begins... I doubt ants will be attracted as the yeast will very quickly use up the sugar. In doing so they also produce some ethanol which will inhibit any bacteria from growing. This is very important: the yeast crowd out the bacteria which cause bad smells.

Jim is in no way related to Ed Warner though they may have shared a common ancestor some many moons ago beyond recorded memory. The article will go up on my website in about a years time unless the BKA takes up my proposal to sell articles online in a pay-per-view fashion, that is, you can buy the article from the BKA for say £1 rather than join the BKA to get them... The BKA owns the copyright them now and I am very partial to supporting the BKA. I think there will soon be an e-membership option where you can sign up for the e-Killinews (which should be cheaper than an AKA membership) in which case, as a member, it is your right to have access to the various articles. Some BIG changes are happening in the BKA so stay tuned!

Keep well