Quick question. co2 vs TPN+

**TITSMAGEE** · 29th Oct 2009, 01:07

I'm on the verge of setting up my tank all over again, this time a planted one. I was wondering whether to invest in a co2 setup for my plants or not to but instead use water plant fertilization? I am planning on keeping a rainbow snakehead and other fish possibly shrimps as well.
It would be much appreciated if anyone could give me simple straight forward advice. I have seen both tanks which use co2 and don't, both look great, but the tank that used TPN+ had no fish just shrimp. Is it safe for fish if I used TPN+? and which brand is good?
Thank you,
Viphon.

**StanChung** · 29th Oct 2009, 04:06

Hi Viphon,

Won't the rainbow snakehead eat all the shrimps and fish in there? I think the cleaning crew won't be very happy.

Plants need some form of carbon. TPN [Tropica Plant Nutrition?] doesn't provide carbon. You need something like Seachem Flourish Excel to supplement TPN if going without a CO2 system.

Some plants don't need CO2 to be supplied but choices are very limited to a handful.

Tell us more about your vision of the tank you want. How well planted it's going to be, is the fish more important , the look of the tank in general etc.

**Blue Whale** · 29th Oct 2009, 06:50

Ooo...new setup. *pak pok pak pok*

1. Budget?
2. CO2 for consideration:
- CO2 Tank with regulator ($$$)
- CO2 Reactor, you mixed it yourself. (Sugar + yeast, optional bicarbonate of soda)
- CO2 Tablets 36 tablets for ±$5

3. Food for my plant that I am using now
- Seachem Nitrogen
- Seachem Trace Element
- Iron (forgot the brand, at office now)
- Seachem Potassium

How about think of sand, filter and conditioning your tank before dropping any plants or fish inside...lol. Filter will determine how often you will need to do your maintenance. Lighting can come in later.

**TITSMAGEE** · 29th Oct 2009, 11:54

Thank you, Blue whale & Stanchung for your time.
I am guessing that if I was going to keep a snakehead or two that they were always going to be the stars of my tank. But I also want to make it home as much as possible by adding lots of plants, and I will be experimenting with some white sand. The shrimps and snail will be there to enhance the natural look, if they die I will replace them ( I sound so cruel ) but I will be feeding the snakeheads with brine shrimp or bloodworms.

Stanchung, you were saying that if I were not to use co2, tpn+ & seachem flourish exel would be enough to provide my plants and let them thrive?
Co2 kit with the regulator is expensive for me if the other ways work just as well I would rather save some cash for something else.

Again thank you for your time,
Viphon.

**StanChung** · 29th Oct 2009, 15:19

If the fish are the starts then you can consider TPN with SFE. I think in Thailand you can get Ferka brand + SFE[carbon]. With SFE, you can skip CO2 but it's not compatible with some plants like Vallineria.
But not to worry there's still a ton of choices like Ferns, Cryptocoryne and Echinodorus species.

I presume it would be quite a large tank[4ft and above?]because the snakehead will grow big. I'd get CO2 in the long run because it's just much cheaper if you're in it for more than a year by my estimation of a 4ft tank.

**Shadow** · 29th Oct 2009, 18:10

which such big tank, pressurize CO2 will be much cheaper in the long run.

**TITSMAGEE** · 29th Oct 2009, 22:06

Hi,
Yeah my tank is approximately 4.7 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.4 ft (Length, Width, Height)
Okay thanks for the advice guys I will be going to check out some co2 setups in a few weeks time when I am free.

I checked my water temperature today at it was a blistering 35 degrees Celsius, I didn't think it was that hot, it sure does not feel that hot, I only have sucker fish in there right now with a few of other fish I have know idea what they are called, but all seem to be fine. I think its all because of the lighting, the light is on for too long so I'm going to try to leave it on for only 8 hours a day, would that be fine? because before its been on for much longer. If the temperature continues to sustain like this even after turning the lights off, would I need to get either a chiller or a fan installed in there?

I would like to thank you Stan Chung, for the expertise.

**Blue Whale** · 29th Oct 2009, 23:29

Actually 3 ft and above you can consider CO2 Tank. As for regulator, there is manual and electronic one. Since Stan would be around most likely, you might get better advice upon your posting. Manual one, I would advise, whatever you try, take small steps.

My worst experience with manual regulator did not kill any fish but all of em start lying on driftwood close to water surface trying hard to breathe. Lucky I reach home early that day then start the pump. Oh yes, I do keep pump to oxygenate the tank, just in case. Come with tube and taps, like LFS but on a smaller scale.

Running water, will help to regulate down the temp. My tank is abt 26-27 degree most of the time.
If light is close to water surface, temp will be high too. When I have 4 tube, I will off 2 of the lights to keep it down. using 350ml plastic bottle freezed, only during the Q1 or Q2 of the year when average room temperature is higher.

Hmm...rainbow snakehead...this one?
http://fisc.er.usgs.gov/Snakehead_ci...a_bleheri.html

**StanChung** · 30th Oct 2009, 03:19

Hi Viphon,
A CO2 solenoid with timer is the way to go if you're in it for the long run. No buts about it. You can't beat something that runs like clockwork. One less thing to worry before you go for work and after you come back from work.

A 5" diameter fan will be able to help cool the tank but it can only reduce 2-3 degrees Celsious from the ambient temperature. While most plants can tolerate 29-30 C for short periods, they look a little dull and bleached. 35C is very hot! I think you need a chiller! Installing a fan and a chiller is a good idea, from what I can see it seems to cost less to run. Anybody else can concur? I know at least two others who've said the same from their own experience though we all have no accurate way to measure it.

8 hours photoperiod is fine but in the beginning it's better to start off at around 4 and slowly move up to 8-10 as needed in a month. This is to reduce chances of algae like 'Greenwater' and 'BGA'. Fertilization also has to be gradual as the plant mass increases.

I've noticed some 'monster fishkeepers' like to have some floating plants for their tanks. Some are quite attractive and not fussy. Best part is they don't need CO2-

However it all depends on you. Do keep us posted. Do start a new thread in the Aquascaping section of your project.

**TITSMAGEE** · 31st Oct 2009, 11:54

Yes blue whale that is the fish want to get. Regarding the co2 I think I will save up and most likely get the setup for my tank since it looks to be worth it. I also think that I would have to get a chiller, it seems to be freakin expensive!!! I will go around the market and have a look around.

Last question, regarding the lighting. My light are really normal attached to the celing not that far away from the tank. I have two blubs, how many watts is best?

Thanks to the both of you.
Viphon.

**StanChung** · 31st Oct 2009, 16:15

Lighting is a matter of the choice of plants you intend to keep.
You have a very tall tank and large tank [2.4ft] and if you want to plant carpet plants you will need a lot of light. Somewhere around 500-600W and above in my estimation.

Of course if you choose shade plants you can get by with about 300W.

**TITSMAGEE** · 31st Oct 2009, 17:48

500-600 is a lot! you mean MH lights right?

**StanChung** · 31st Oct 2009, 18:06

Yes, it is a lot- I've got 444W on my 5X2X2ft tank but the water height is only about 18-20" and I can just make it with carpet plants like hairgrass and glosso.
I think I need more light though if I were to keep the water at 21-22".

2.4ft[~28"] ht tank, I'm not sure if it's enough at 444W, but I think you should get MH lighting where you have 2X150W and 4X36W PL. Must have the option of keeping MH and PL on separate timers so you can have the PL's come on for 3-4 hours while the MH's are kept at 8.

Not all bad news, I estimate carpet plants like Staurogyne sp and E. tennelus would do fine at around 300W in your tank.

**Blue Whale** · 1st Nov 2009, 03:20

Ha...I very kiasu (scare to die)

Look at my one. I have a lot of fail over. Okay...maybe I IT guy so like to have backup system.

2 CO2 reactors (left, bottom right), 1 CO2 tank w/regulator (left bottom corner), water pump, water filter. Look at the pict.

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...9&d=1257015933