marine tank setup

[dinoegg]

Hi all,

just would like to know roughly how much will it cost to setup a 2 feet marine tank and the equipment needed (chillier.. etc)...

how about maintenance effort.. is it more than planted tank?
(currently I just change water and do some plant trimming once every week..)

Thanks,
Dino

[kelstorm]

Dino,

A setup of marine tank for 2 ft.. can just be a couple of hundred of dollars..

They can be customised at closed to $1,000 with the works i think.. L/O aka Lionel, had something similar done in his house.. i think he got it done at ReefWorld.. i'm not too sure.. Lionel.. where u get your tank done?

However, if u decided to DIY.. this is the list. As i always advocate.. this is a very expensive setup when compared with FW.. so go simple and upgrade all the way..

1. 2ft Tank with cabinet (glass thickness minimum 10-12mm)
2. Filter or Sump (Sump have to be customised, Filter; can get Ehiem 2227, 2229. Price, sorry,i dun know[])
3. Protein Skimmer (Budget constraint? can get ORCA.. cheap and good.. but need an air pump to go along) less than $50. Me using That!!! it should be the cheapest in the market.
4. Artificial Sea salt..there are many brands out there.. u choose.. corallife is good.. dun get red sea.. lousy.)Me using corallife. some ppl might use others.. depends on choice.
5. Hydrometer.. to test the salinty level of the water. get the floating type cost less than $3. Me using that!
6. New tank setup; test kits. Get Ammonia, nitrate and nitrite test kits. $13.50 for sera brand each..might be cheaper depending on the place u get it... try petmart
7. Live rocks average cost might be $4-6 per kg.. so.. u have to estimate how much rocks u want..dun forget that some corals u get, come with rocks.. factor this in..
8. Fishes and corals are variables already.
9. coral sand if u like..
10. Chiller.. like i mentioned.. go simple.. for 2ft tank, dun bother abt chiller.. u probably gonna freeze your livestock.. get an AC fan.. they will do the trick..
11. Lightings.. depends on what u want to keep.. fishes, FL will do just fine.. but might not be strong enuff for corals. Best if u can get MH..

Other items like denitrator, ozone, UV, ionized canister etc etc.. wait till u have more $$$ or more experience then consider them.. enjoy the hobby first then try to look at how to beautify it or bring it to the next level desired. It is also to prevent u from getting frustrated in having to observe so much stuff and gettin put off..

Do take note that the bacteria(nitrogen cycle) cultivation process can take up to 3 weeks or longer.. and during this time.. dun expect to have any live stock inside.. coz it will die on u.. there are shorter process to this and that is to 'seed' your tank from other's matured tanks.. u need help, let me know.. u can get a small packet of coral sand and exchange it with me.. hehehe.. or can collect some of the filter wood from us.. we will be glad to help.

Maintenance wise, as the one we talking abt is 2ft.. i would advice u to change no more than 10-20% of the water each time... this is to prevent the fluctuation in water quality parameter.. in marine.. the bigger the tank.. the more allowance for error (personal feeling) as compared with 2ft as a yardstick in this topic. As such, i can say that the bigger the tank, the lesser the maintenance(again, personal feeling).. others might differ on the statement.

Maintenance wise also have to look at what kind of tank u looking at.. Reef or fish or both.. each of them have to take note of different issues..

my suggestion is that.. b4 u decided to plunge straight into the hobby, go and get a book on marine aquarium keeping and read abt it first.. that way, if u dun like it.. the most u lose is the cost of the book and not the $1,000(just a rough number) and complain that the hobby is impossible or difficult..

Eg of the books are like:
1. The new saltwater aquarium handbook by Geroge C. Blasiola II. Publisher: Barrons
2. The marine aquarium by Nick Dakin (available in Kino, Taka)
3. The complete Idiot's guide to saltwater aquariums. (Me using the book too.. hey.. we learn something new everyday).

If u need help..just post your queries.. we will be glad to help u out.. all u have to do is just ask..
hope that this has been helpful.

Kelvin

[lsz]

kel just want to ask something ..
trying to learn soemthing too lah

is there any diff requirement for tank glass thickness for marine? coz 10-12mm for a 2ft is very thick...
issit coz of the rocks ?

you mentioned abt the filtration...for a 2 ft using 2227 or 2229, if for FW that will be super overkill, but is this kind of filtration a norm for any marine setup? COz i remembered last time they only use UGF.

[IcecruncherZ]

Pls dont even think about Undergraval filter for marine tanks... Mine crashed so badly I wanna cry also cannot...

The thing is that the spouts are Usually VERY delicate... and things are made worse that they're usually attached at the base of the plate BELOW your sand bed... which means that if your spout get's crooked or worse comes out from the attachment, that's it bro... your system is so dead so dead. Breaking a spout is a matter of time, with tumbling liferocks and frantic fish catching.

Also, after a while, UGFs clog up due to large amount of detritus getting stuck in between the sand particles.

Also, my personal view is that the large amount of sand used for UGFs is rather unsightly, esp in a matured one... whereby the sand will be all black and green and blotchy squished up on your front glass wall... trust me... it's not a pretty sight...

Another thing is that in such a 'closed' system, detritus (shit etc...) stays in the tank either on the sand bed or whatever, and weekly siphoning of necessary to prevent ammonia buildup... whereas with overflows, SOME solid matter is simply filtered out by the overflow and maintenance is as easy as washing/ changing the sponge...

As for canister filters... I used an Eheim when my UGF was about to die... and actually the Eheim did do a rather good job lahz...

But maintenance with the Eheim is still no where near as convenient as an overflow system...

But Since it's a 2 foot tank, a sump is a rather ridiculous set up, so I'd recommend a really powerful Eheim with a protein skimmer... can actually consider the Red Sea Prizm if you have spare cash... it'll do nicely for a 2 foot tank...

I hope this is of use...

[kelstorm]

LSZ,
Reason for using 10-12mm glass. Firstly, SW density is heavier than FW and thus greater in pressure.. the same amt of water in a FW tank is different in pressure from that of the SW. Like wise, with the rocks, the weight the tank is gonna hold within it confined space is more than that of FW planted.. u dun want to have the tank giving way on u.. the best design is still the conventional rectangular type.
another thing, it is for asethetic purposes. Thicker glass
looks more professional done..[] and sturdy.
Filtration can never be overkill. Pls dun use underwater gravel.. the results will be like what Ice had mentioned.
In marine, there are several types of filtration methods, sump, mechanical, berlin method, DSB, live rocks etc.
Me personally is using DSB (abt 1-1.5 inches.. does that considered as thick? hehe), sump, overflow filtration system (first layer b4 reaching my sump), live rocks, protein skimmer and internal canisters to 'clean' the water. u might call me kiasu, but me taking no chances man.. expensive leh.. to replace all the livestock... well.. a sump for 2ft, i do agree with Ice that it can be too much.. but it is good as u can install the protein skimmer inside the sump rather than in the tank. I dun really know the price of 2227 or 2229 but it is not as 'wet' as sump, which might cause salt sprays to the surrounding areas. Ehiem system will keep everything in place.. no mess... in fact, me have setup a off the shelf tank (petmart) with basic simple lightings(change the tubes to reach the kelvins required) and uses 2 ehiem liberty 150 for filtration and it work just fine.. total cost.. less than 250 for the equipment.. but that can be used as a quarantine tank if u like.. or otherwise also can.. think abt it.. u interested? hahaha
Kelvin
[]

[dinoegg]

Thank.. very informative..
you guys are really good..

Dino

[kelstorm]

u are welcome dinoegg... glad to be of help.. hehehe..[] just sharing some experience and help to fellow aquarist lor.. if not, very expensive to learn it the hard way. []
kelvin

[nautilus]

Hi guys,

I am also thinking of setting up a marine tank. Most probably, i'll consider getting a 3ft tank with cannister filtration. I'm considering the following:
1) 3ft 155L tank(of course)
2) eheim pro2 2028 cannister filter
3) orca protein skimmer(dunno where to get....can anyone help)
4) Some lighting which is still undecided(pls give advise on this!)

I'd most probably run a fish only with live rock and maybe a few corals to top it off. The tank will be in an air conditioned room. Any comments(or help) are welcome. Also, does the light need to be on for a fixed period of time everyday?

[Spiff]

hi nat..
i think u better replace the ehiem canister wif a sump.or can either choose natural methods.
if u goin wif a high bio load. u shld go wif a refugium plus DSB.these mthods can rapidly break down all the NO3 n other harmful stuff.
as for lightings...use PLs as they r cheap.MH is advisible if u r going for hard n light-lovin corals.
kelstorm has a orca skimmer...u can ask him where he got his from.

[kelstorm]

Hi nautilus,

If u want to get caninster filter, i would recommend u going for either 2227 or 2229 rather than 2028 coz the former two models are wet/dry filters which aids the decomposition of nitrite and ammonia. Price wise of 2227/2229 should fall under 300 at petmart.

Alternatively u can consider getting a refugium which cost abt 300++ at petmart. Refugium is good is u want to reduce the nitrate level coz u can keep macroalgae to absorb the nitrate. However, it also depends on the bio-load of your tank.

For sump, it is usually customized. My sump is calculated to filter the entire tank abt estimated 3 times an hour.
The natural method that spiff is talking abt include the DSB(Deep Sand Bed - mine is abt 1-1.5"), live rocks.

For protein skimmer: u can obtain ORCA skimmer (different sizes) at petmart but u need a airpump to go with it.. it is the cheapest protein skimmer ard.. alternatively, the next best will be called macro.. which required a powerhead.. it is available at the pet shop near to the fruits stall.. sorry, can't recall the name of the shop.

u can consider using PL(U-shaped compact lights) or FL (florescence tubes)lights to keep your tank.. u need both the marine white light and blue light.. if not, u will get a yellowish tinge to the tank. Blue lights can also be used to view the fishes at night.[]. However, as what spiff had mentioned, if u gonna keep light loving corals, it is advisable to go for MH(Metal Halide) but it is costly..

Fishes only tank need not have high quality lighting system.(Personal view)but if u want to keep corals and want the easiest to keep type, go for mushroom corals. Usually, hard corals love and require strong lighting. As corals are 'animals' they need rest as well.. thus the lighting systems should not be switched on for more than 12-15 hours a day..

Btw, on behalf of aquaticquotient, welcome to the forum especially marine.. hahaha.. paiseh, me trying to increase the 'membership' here in marine forum.. bo pian.. hahaha..
[]

If u never start a marine tank b4, i suggest u getting a book to read abt the hobby first so that u know what u are heading for.. i have attached some books that i have.

Eg of the books are like:
1. The new saltwater aquarium handbook by Geroge C. Blasiola II. Publisher: Barrons
2. The marine aquarium by Nick Dakin (available in Kino, Taka)
3. The complete Idiot's guide to saltwater aquariums. (Me using the book too.. hey.. we learn something new everyday).

u can also read abt the earlier replies that i have posted on this topic..

All the best for your forthcoming marine tank.

Any help required, just post your queries and we will try to answer them. we learn something new everyday..

Kelvin
[]

[IcecruncherZ]

I strongly recommend a sump instead of a canister filter... and ALSO to increase the size of your tank to 300l... still 3 feet, but 3 x 2 x 2...

Ive had both the 3 x 1.5 x 1.5 and the 3 x 2 x 2 tanks and trust me it makes all the diff in viewing pleasure...

Spend more initially, regret less and spend less on repairs later...

[nautilus]

hi guys,

Thanks for all your replies. I never knew that such an active aquarium forum exist in SG - it's just what i need . I, like many, have been mesmerized by the incredible array of colours that marine fishes posses.

I was actually deciding on whether to build myself a MH hood but in the end, the trouble+high price+high elec build made me think of PL tubes instead. How many PL tubes will be sufficient to adequately light a 3ft tank? Also, there has been much mention about different kinds of lights(eg. actinic, natural sunlight,etc), which are the ones that i should consider?

Much as i would like a deeper tank, i have space constrains behind the tank cos i'll be putting the tank in my bedroom. 1.5ft would be pushing it a little, 2 ft would be ludicrous.

As for the filter, a LFS recommended me the 2217. The guy told me to throw away all the filter media that comes with it and buy some stuff like activated carbon+some other stuff to fill the canister. What do you recommend to be put into the 2227/2229? Help i'm confused!

BTW, this site is really great!

Naut

[IcecruncherZ]

1stly... DONT PUT THE TANK IN YOUR BEDROOM! Hahahz... this is quite out of the point but I've been having very poor sleep due to the motor grunts and trickling water... up to you lahz... some pple like it... I've been compelled to use Sleeping pills liao manz...

As for lighting... if you're going for PL, you'd need 4 x 36w PL lighting. Which means 2 strip hoods modified to fit the PL tubes. This costs 95 bucks each, available at Nature aquarium. This doesnt include the actinics, which are about 55 bucks each for either 50/50 or pure actinics... and you need a pair of those. These tubes last only 6 months, after which the blue will fade and though you may not notice the colour change, your corals will...

As filter media, the stuff in the canister is OKAE lahz... but I actually changed mine to Siporax... The point when it comes to filter media is Which media is most porous, hence providing Most surface area for bacteria... I think siporax is quite defunct... I dont know which is the latest technology...

Activated carbon is quite impt actually in a marine setup... it's actually like (very crudely) a vacumn cleaner... it takes up various impurities and keeps your water clear Again it can actually act as a substrate for bacteria, but this is reversely undesirable cos you dont want your biological filtration to go down everytime you change the carbon...

Hope this helps ya... =)



I'm not as lao jiao as many pple here... so I may be wrong Hahahz...

[kelstorm]

Dear Nautilus,
the type of lightings will depend on whether u keeping corals... if so, if u can afford or have the knowledge to build 1, go for it. if u need help to build it, u can post it again.. i know of some aquarists in this forum who DIY their MH.

Personally, i have never used PL tubes except together with my old marine tank which i used MH with PL blue lights but that is strictly for viewing fishes purposes. So, i can't help u on this PL thing.

Currently, i am using FL for my 4ft tank.. technology has advanced that FL can now be used to provide the kelvins required in marine.. personally, me using 2 tubes of arcadia marine white lamp and 2 tubes of arcadia marine blue actinic. Basically, i chose this method of lightings is due to lower cost (me poor student leh!![])

The blue actinic will be able to provide the specific spectrum (400-480nm) to achieve the blue chorophyll absorption for zooxanthellae symbiosis to develop. It also creates fluorescence on fishes and corals, ideal for night viewing..[]

The marine white lamp has the color temperature of 9500K. The spectrum is concentrated at (400-480nm) which also assist in the promotion of zooxanthellae production to encourage coral and invertebrate growth.
The shelf life of the lamps is estimated to be ard 12 months; 15 months max if u push it.

space is crucial in marine. not only for viewing purposes but also for the exchange of water and air, which helps to keep your tank temp at a constant. unless u are placing it in a air-conditioned room, it might get too high in temp for corals if u are thinking of keeping them. try to locate the tank in a airy location. u also have to take into consideration the water splashes.. this might cause some of your furniture or metal parts to rust or corrode.. hahaha..

For filter, do consider the 2227/2229 and do throw everything away. Use bio-balls, filter wool and activated carbon. basically that is what i am using.

Bio-balls to cultivate the bacteria to break down the ammonia and nitrite. My friend uses 2227 and the only stuff he have inside is plastic screws(in place of bio-balls), filter wool and activated carbon.

Activated carbon is useful in marine coz it not only remove all the toxic elements in the tank but also keep your water clear and 'clean'.

Filter wool, the first layer of filtration and bacteria grows there too..as such, when u replace the wool, take some of the old wool to 'seed' the growth of bacteria.

Ice, sleeping pills eh? hahaha.. i thought it is therapeutic to look at fishes? i know lah.. u stress over your tank right?? hahaha...[]

Kelvin

[Spiff]

nat
pls do urself a favour by goin wif any NNR instead of the canister........i got nothing against a canister lah but i dun think its really useful n hon is the only person i know who is still using it(nothing inside..he using it for xtra water movement)
pls get ursef a good skimmer like tunze , red sea prizm or a venturi sander skimmer. i really dun think tt the ocra can cope.n get urself 3 or 4 bags of C1 grade sand from petmart($6 for 10kg)u need at least 3in for a DSB.
abt the diy Mh well its very ez. the whole setup exculding bulbs will only cost abt $100...oh n excluding the hood too.the only thing ex abt MH is the bulbs...can cost $150 each.n abt the actinic PL..dun get them....act PLs r not true actinic...thus...it wont make ur corals flouresen very much. use FL acts instead.N make sure tt tit states ACTINIC 03!

Actinic O3 usually refers to florescent bulbs that incorporate true actinic phosphors that burn blue (with a spectral peak at ~420nm).
7100K blue bulbs(PLs)usually utilize conventional phosphors to generate white light, with a blue coating on the bulb's inner wall used to achieve the blue coloration. This is why most PL systems using the 7100k blue blue don't floresnce the corals like.

Do not leave your actinics on tru night. Although they may seem to mimic dawn/dusk colors, most reef inhabitants don't differiante between actinics/blue bulbs and "full spectrum" bulbs. If they perceive intense light anywhere between 400-600nm, they'll think it's daylight. Remember tt reef animals don't see the way you and I do.1000 watts of blue light is equivalent to 1000 watts of full spectum light. The dawn/dusk effect is geared more to fulfill human whim then for the benefit of your reef inhabitants.

[IcecruncherZ]

Kelvin... you Laugh...

Sianz liao... I'll be getting another flame angel and royal gramma again to try... hopefully this time they'll do well... cos VENUSTUS IS DEAD!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHA... I'm such a sadist...

[nautilus]

----------------
On 2/5/2002 6:31:17 PM

1stly... DONT PUT THE TANK IN YOUR BEDROOM! Hahahz... this is quite out of the point but I've been having very poor sleep due to the motor grunts and trickling water... up to you lahz... some pple like it... I've been compelled to use Sleeping pills liao manz...

Haha....guess i'll have to get myself some earmuffs then. I would like to put it in my hall, but the prospect of high water temperature and the purchase of a chiller(EX!) scares me.

As for lighting... if you're going for PL, you'd need 4 x 36w PL lighting. Which means 2 strip hoods modified to fit the PL tubes. This costs 95 bucks each, available at Nature aquarium. This doesnt include the actinics, which are about 55 bucks each for either 50/50 or pure actinics... and you need a pair of those. These tubes last only 6 months, after which the blue will fade and though you may not notice the colour change, your corals will...

Yups, this is the route that i intend to take too. I went down to nature's aquarium today and they were selling a hood made for 4PL's at 170 with 4 AEC 6500K PL tubes. Should i change one or two of the tubes to actinics or should i consider something else?

As filter media, the stuff in the canister is OKAE lahz... but I actually changed mine to Siporax... The point when it comes to filter media is Which media is most porous, hence providing Most surface area for bacteria... I think siporax is quite defunct... I dont know which is the latest technology...

Activated carbon is quite impt actually in a marine setup... it's actually like (very crudely) a vacumn cleaner... it takes up various impurities and keeps your water clear Again it can actually act as a substrate for bacteria, but this is reversely undesirable cos you dont want your biological filtration to go down everytime you change the carbon...

Hope this helps ya... =)

Yeah, i've heard many advice about putting activated carbon+coral chips or sand+polyfilter+dunno what else.....but up till now, i do not know which works best....

I'm not as lao jiao as many pple here... so I may be wrong Hahahz...

But you are definitely more "lao jiao" than me

[nautilus]

----------------
On 2/5/2002 7:40:41 PM

Dear Nautilus,
the type of lightings will depend on whether u keeping corals... if so, if u can afford or have the knowledge to build 1, go for it. if u need help to build it, u can post it again.. i know of some aquarists in this forum who DIY their MH.

Personally, i have never used PL tubes except together with my old marine tank which i used MH with PL blue lights but that is strictly for viewing fishes purposes. So, i can't help u on this PL thing.

Currently, i am using FL for my 4ft tank.. technology has advanced that FL can now be used to provide the kelvins required in marine.. personally, me using 2 tubes of arcadia marine white lamp and 2 tubes of arcadia marine blue actinic. Basically, i chose this method of lightings is due to lower cost (me poor student leh!![])

Well, i'm still unsure of which road to take, either PL or FL. MH's are definitely out of the list because of the high price. If i use FL's, how many would be sufficient to light a 3ft tank? Also what are the combi of light tubes that you are using? I've been looking around but 3FL hoods for 3ft tanks seems like a really rare thing out there. Would it be sufficient if i were to try out 2PL's + 1 FL in the same hood? BTW, i'm also a student lar.

The blue actinic will be able to provide the specific spectrum (400-480nm) to achieve the blue chorophyll absorption for zooxanthellae symbiosis to develop. It also creates fluorescence on fishes and corals, ideal for night viewing..[]

Exactly what i need..... Purpose of the tank is to pacify me to sleep, but i doubt it'll ever serve that function though - most prob i'll be too engrosed in seeing what's happening in the tank.

The marine white lamp has the color temperature of 9500K. The spectrum is concentrated at (400-480nm) which also assist in the promotion of zooxanthellae production to encourage coral and invertebrate growth.
The shelf life of the lamps is estimated to be ard 12 months; 15 months max if u push it.

space is crucial in marine. not only for viewing purposes but also for the exchange of water and air, which helps to keep your tank temp at a constant. unless u are placing it in a air-conditioned room, it might get too high in temp for corals if u are thinking of keeping them. try to locate the tank in a airy location. u also have to take into consideration the water splashes.. this might cause some of your furniture or metal parts to rust or corrode.. hahaha..

Yups, the tank will be in an aircon room so cooling it shouldn't be a prob.

For filter, do consider the 2227/2229 and do throw everything away. Use bio-balls, filter wool and activated carbon. basically that is what i am using.

Bio-balls to cultivate the bacteria to break down the ammonia and nitrite. My friend uses 2227 and the only stuff he have inside is plastic screws(in place of bio-balls), filter wool and activated carbon.

Activated carbon is useful in marine coz it not only remove all the toxic elements in the tank but also keep your water clear and 'clean'.

Filter wool, the first layer of filtration and bacteria grows there too..as such, when u replace the wool, take some of the old wool to 'seed' the growth of bacteria.

BTW, how's the 2227? Is it better than current eheim filters? Does it work well with a 150L tank? Can you please elaborate on how and where do you put all the stuff in the filter?

Thanks a 1,000,000

[kelstorm]

Nautilus,
Chiller is not a must.. me currently is not using one coz my hall temp is abt 28-29 degree constant.
well.. in aquarium keeping.. there is many methods and ways to keepin one tank.. but as long as it keep your tank viable, the method is a good method...[]
Kelvin

[nautilus]

----------------
On 2/5/2002 8:10:24 PM

nat
pls do urself a favour by goin wif any NNR instead of the canister........i got nothing against a canister lah but i dun think its really useful n hon is the only person i know who is still using it(nothing inside..he using it for xtra water movement)

Is NNR natural nitrate reduction? Sorry i'm a newbie that's why i do not know these too chim terms besides LFS or DSB. I've heard that this kind of system works really well, can you elaborate on your experiences with it?

pls get ursef a good skimmer like tunze , red sea prizm or a venturi sander skimmer. i really dun think tt the ocra can cope.

I'm actually considering a prizm. Do you have any idea how much it costs? The last time i went to petmart, they quoted me 200. But most online shops are selling it for about 70USD so i reckon 200 is a little steep for the prizm.

n get urself 3 or 4 bags of C1 grade sand from petmart($6 for 10kg)u need at least 3in for a DSB.

Do the staff in petmart know what's C1 grade sand, or is it written on the packet itself? ROughly how much would i need for a 3 ft?

abt the diy Mh well its very ez. the whole setup exculding bulbs will only cost abt $100...oh n excluding the hood too.the only thing ex abt MH is the bulbs...can cost $150 each.n abt the actinic PL..dun get them....act PLs r not true actinic...thus...it wont make ur corals flouresen very much. use FL acts instead.N make sure tt tit states ACTINIC 03!

Actinic O3 usually refers to florescent bulbs that incorporate true actinic phosphors that burn blue (with a spectral peak at ~420nm).
7100K blue bulbs(PLs)usually utilize conventional phosphors to generate white light, with a blue coating on the bulb's inner wall used to achieve the blue coloration. This is why most PL systems using the 7100k blue blue don't floresnce the corals like.

Do not leave your actinics on tru night. Although they may seem to mimic dawn/dusk colors, most reef inhabitants don't differiante between actinics/blue bulbs and "full spectrum" bulbs. If they perceive intense light anywhere between 400-600nm, they'll think it's daylight. Remember tt reef animals don't see the way you and I do.1000 watts of blue light is equivalent to 1000 watts of full spectum light. The dawn/dusk effect is geared more to fulfill human whim then for the benefit of your reef inhabitants.

----------------

Based on your experience, do you think it's good to have 3FL's or 2PL+1FL(actinic)? I'm currently in a dilemma on which to choose at the moment.

Thanks for your help.