LFS, newbie and especially the highly educated ones

[barmby]

I think the onus should be on the hobbyist to learn by themselves than going to a LFS to get lesson on 101 Fishkeeping. You are simply not cut out for any particular hobby if you do not have that drive and passion. Reason being, you will bound to bump into very unique problem (to you) later on. I used to scour the AQ forum in the middle of the night, looking for answers and more answers. And I am still doing it today.

Be mindful when you start talking about a particular fish shop about their percieved bad service and etc. Sometime, the answer is in the mirror. Spare a thought. Some LFS owners are less fortunate. they did not go to school, learn about 4Ps and etc. Therefore, they are less than capable to articulate about the solution of your problem at hand. Think about it, if they do not have business, it means they do not have a job. Be mindful of what you write. People's rice bowl is at stake.

[eric6363]

I agree with Colin.
So far, I have met maybe 2 people from LFS who knows what they are talking about.
Educating the staff is a long and tedious process, and not all the staff are passionate about fish.
Most are only there to earn a living.
Most would not care to read fish forums or search the internet to learn more.

One time, I asked one of the workers in a LFS in Marine Parade what kind of fish that was, and he replied, "Sentosa".
I searched the internet and the only Sentosa I found was that island. Of course, that fish is actually a "Frontosa".

[random2]

Yes, But a newbie who is not that net savy will first land up in an LFS for that 101 course. Some of the LFS fellows will suggest proper things but some dont. It entirely depends on both the seller and the listener.

I can say that for this part of the world that some of the LFS have started learning to give proper advice. But as you said, its business first for any person.

Think I would have left the hobby long back if I had not searched about things on the net and started things. I would have been a frustrated man with orandas and cichlids in a tank

[bryan]

People who are not net savy would not be able to find their way here to whine about bad service from a LFS.

Long before the internet, there were also books on fishkeeping. You know, those floppy things made of paper?

Alot of newbies are impatient despite advice that the fish tank is not a just add water, fish and plug it in deal. I've seen countless people buying tank sand filter lights and fish at a go.

[stormhawk]

@barmby,

You cannot stop fellow aquarists from complaining about the service or products from a particular LFS. Not everyone has the same great experience while shopping at a store that you and everyone else out there loves. Even though it is just a business for some LFS owners, it is in their interest to correctly advice their customers about fish care and be professional in doing so. They should also do so in a friendly manner, so as not to lose potential customers. Time and again, I've read about black-faced LFS staff. Is that what we, as the customer want?

Just as they are running a business, it does not mean that they should NOT know anything about fish keeping, especially when it comes to dealing with livestock. Dealing with customers is always important. It But like you said, many don't really know the basics. Which is why the AVA course for pet store owners is highly welcome.

So as customers, we should take the advice from the LFSes with a pinch of salt and decide what it is best for our tanks, by first consulting information online and/or opinions from fellow aquarists. That and also gaining experience as we go along.

@bryan:

Many aquarium books do not really give you proper advice, especially on the temperament of certain fish species. Most are just information rehashed over and over again by various authors. There's always pictures in the books, on items such as filters and medication, that it feels more like a commercial endorsement of a particular brand.

By the way, we were all impatient once. Cut the newbies some slack. Nobody's perfect. The best breeder on the forums may not even be able to breed the easiest of fish, but is highly capable of breeding any expensive fish. Likewise with people who are able to churn out beautiful works of art in the form of planted tanks, but can't keep a certain species of fish alive.

[Fuzzy]

Part of the problem is many people especially the older generations think that they know everything there is to know about aquariums already.

Glass cage + Water + Fish = instant pet.

Many stubbornly hold to these beliefs even when you're trying to teach them how to be responsible aquarists.

They don't see the importance of cycling a tank, they don't see the necessity for a canister filter, and some don't even believe in using anti-chlorine. Try explaining Chloramine to a 65 year old uncle in Hokkien..I think my head almost exploded.

As far as they're concerned, draw up some water from the well or other aquifer in your kampong, fill up the glass box, and throw in the goldfish or guppies they've been doing it for 50 years, nothing we whippersnappers can possibly teach them.

Unfortunately this sort of mentality is regularly passed down from generation to generation. I've even spoken to some LFS owners about this at length. There are those who are responsible about selling fauna and fish tanks.

They're in a fairly difficult position because a large percentage of their customers see this as trying to sell more "useless" equipment and accessories, instead of as an offering of good advice.

Its really hard to run a business if you tell every prospective customer that they need to buy the tank and equipment first then after cycling the tank for 2 to 3 weeks come back to buy livestock that is compatible with each other and with your setup.

[David Moses Heng]

I stumbled upon this thread and decides to share my 2 cents worth.

Without prejudice against anyone, I guess firstly many shoppers today choose not to listen to LFS owners thinking that they know everything. when proper advice is given by responsible LFS owners, the answer that I have encountered were like, " But that's not what the website says..."," I think an empty tank looks awful and that it is not good for fengshui...", "Tank cycling... what is that?" amongst many others.

I believe that the LFS of today did their fair share of educating but are the buyers receptive or are they thinking that they know best given that knowledge is just a click away.

I have seen people who went into LFS and buy bags and bags of altums despite being advised not to cos the fish were not stable. Their answers? " Uncle, I have been breeding angelfish for many MONThs and this is just another angel fish what. Except that it is more expensive."

I have also encountered a gentle man who stayed near Frankel who bought 25 altums based on my recommendations and guess how he condition them? After leaving the LFS, he prepare the tank(5ft by 1 ft by 1 ft) by adding Hydro Chloric acid into the water and bring the pH down to pH6. Next he measured the pH of the water inside the bags and he just dumped the altums into the tank without doing the proper steps.

When I saw that, i deeply regretted my recommendation to him. Needless to say, he ignored all my advice telling me "Young man, I have been breeding discus before you even entered army"

What can i say?

While there are many folks out there who live by the old school of add water into a glass bowl, add fish and viola you have a fish tank, I believe there lives another species of fish keepers/collectors who thinks that they know the world just because they read up on the web.

Like barmby, i have been keeping myself glued to AQ, learning as much as i can and one of the reasons as to why i have not tried altums is because I thought that i am not ready as yet...

so for now, i rather appreciate them here and in LFS that has found success in keeping them alive and well.

That's just my 2 cents.

[BFG]

My 2 cents on lfs service.

Any lfs I go to whether it's freshwater type lfs or even marine lfs, I do not expect any service from them. The only service I want from the lfs that I visit is that they catch and bag my fish or coral purchase. And I expect that they should handle my live stock with care as I am always watching. I tend to not impose on them when I visit their store and always go on about in the store at my leisure.

My thinking, as a customer, is that the onus is on me to know what I am purchasing and the cost of the product. I would have already done my homework as to what equipment to get and how my setup will look in the end. From the list I gathered, I would purchase as much as possible from 1 lfs due to the fact that I have no personal vehicle and have to rely on public transport and secondly I also believe that when you've made a big purchase, the lfs owner would surely gives some discount and might even gives you discount on your next visit although mileage may vary for some.

For me, if I encounter a Mr-Know-It-All, I would leave him to his affair. Whether or not the livestock survive under his care is not a concern to me. He would be hurt economically and would soon realized it by themselves. Of course, with their inflated ego and what not, they would never admit their follies and will always gives excuses and such when you inquire about their pet progress. So no point in trying to change these people mindset as they already had it in their mind that they are better than others. The best outcome for you is that they would be out of the hobby sooner than you. In this situation, you could purchase their item at a lower price and you might be in a position to haggle it for more discount.

This is my experience.

[vinz]

To get better participation in this discussion, I think we need to rename this thread, but I am unsure. Anyone got better ideas than: "Fish shop's knowledge and the newbie"

Also, the thread seems to have evolved to shop service standards rather than shop's knowledge.

[vinz]

It's not just the fish shops. Nowadays with so many shops selling any one kind of product, and the speed at which new products appear on the market, many sales people have little or no idea about what they are talking about. In fear of 'losing face' or losing a sale, many fudge when asked about the products, instead of admitting that they don't know.

Try walking into any phone shop now and ask about Android phones.

For any knowledge, we need to keep an open mind. Gather the information (be it from sales people, the internet, books, friends, family, etc.) analyse, research against supporting data and decide which is the right one... or even formulate the real truth from the half-truths.

And also be prepared that what we know to be true today, may be invalidated when new knowledge or information surfaces.

Having been in the hobby since 2000, I've seen information about planted tanks change constantly as other hobbyists share their experiences and experiments. We used to believe that we can only grow certain plants with 3WPG and CO2 injection. Then we discover that 3WPG does not scale up or down correctly with tank sizes. Then we find out we can grow the same plants healthy with 2WPG or less with no CO2 injection (i.e. low tech). The plants just show different colourations (maybe), growth rate and size. Now we have people growing plants on 2WPG with Excel or similar carbon products.

If I read barmby right, his point is that the problem is not so much the people giving the information, but the people receiving the information. That they don't bother or are too lazy to find good information.

[barmby]

Vinz is correct.

If I read barmby right, his point is that the problem is not so much the people giving the information, but the people receiving the information. That they don't bother or are too lazy to find good information.

[Fuzzy]

Vinz is correct.

Yeah I agree also, its often not the store, but the customer who is the problem, at least in Singapore.

I've seen the staff at Polyart try to educate people on how to set up a tank on quite a number of occasions, there tends to be two categories that these first time, or very "casual" aquarists seem to fall into.

One type will basically ignore all advice no matter how significant and proceed with whatever they feel like.

The second will actually just buy whatever is recommended, money no object.

My return to the hobby was similar, I stumbled upon AQ after being out of the hobby for almos 15 years, I knew about the nitrogen cycle about canister filters and flow rates etc.

But the variety of plants was staggering, also I was blown away by how commonplace the aquarium chiller is these days, Chiller was not even a part of our aquarium hobby vocabulary 10 years ago.
Then I found out about this "Amano Guy" and oh boy, I started planning to dig deep (and expensive) holes, oh boy..

[sthh]

Here's my take on the situation. When I first started rearing anything aquatic in my childhood, Internet is not available. For the keen hearted, information comes from uncles and friends, from visiting a friend's house and asking all kind of stupid questions, and from the LFS. Sometimes, information comes from library books for those who bothers.
LFS were very important source of information then. If a fish got sick, we quickly run back to them for solutions.
However, the amount of research done by the fish-keeping community and freely shared through the internet is not being picked up by some less net savvy LFS staff. I don't blame them for it, because most of them really work long hours in the shop and don't serve the net like what we do.
Having said that, there are good and unscrupulous LFS. I have seen LFS that recommends keeping many goldfishes and discus in a tiny tank, and I am sure they are not ignorant about the impending doom for the fishes.
Just like foodies recommending good places to eat, we can always give credit to outstanding LFS. They will get more business, and the bad ones will need to evolve to stay attractive and relevant.

[Fuzzy]

Part of the problem with this is that people who are liable to read such recommendations, or feedback on quality of service and knowledge of the staff in our LFS, are the ones who are already aware of AQ.

I still maintain that the customers are generally the problem though, its not like most ordinary people go out and buy a dog / cat / rodent without knowing what they eat, or what kind of conditions you should ideally provide for them

(though in the cases like for Chinchillas and Huskies this is becoming disturbingly commonplace)

But for some reason when it comes to aquatic pets this is ok, I see people buying or setting up new tanks without cycling or even without using antichlorine all the time.

I'm sure its bad for business to tell the customer you need to first cycle a fish tank for one to four weeks before you put fish in, so most stores at least recommend antichlorine and in the case of some of the better LFS they inform customers if their choices of fish for a community tank are inappropriate (e.g. Cichlids with other species, Bettas with small fish etc)

[blackconvoy]

1) i never seldom ask advise frm LFS staffs because the answer mostly cannot make it.

2) IMO, its the pets owners jobs to find out the info first before buying , be it fish, cat,dog,hamster etc etc

i dont look down on LFS staffs/owners, but most of them keep fishes through experience, not science( hope you get what i mean ).

[eviltrain]

Most pet keeper nowadays dun really know what kind of conditions the pet needs and just rush into buying them. When their pets/fish become sick, they don't know what to do. I personally knew some who don't even bother to read up, and rather go through painful/expensive experience to gain experience ( i was one of them ).

[Fuzzy]

One of the more obvious examples of LFS lack of knowledge that I think is serious is the selling of brackish water species as freshwater species.

I just learned only today that Rocket Shrimp / Red Nose Shrimp (Caridina gracilirostris) is a brackish water species... when I was flipping through the latest issue of Practical Fish Keeping.

I murdered a dozen of the little guys awhile back

[stormhawk]

That might explain why they're so hard to come by these days. I haven't seen those red nose shrimp for ages now. Many other brackish species suffer the same fate. I remember someone who bought this blenny that was sold as a freshwater species. It did not survive long in his freshwater tank.

[Shadow]

I guess it a supplier fault as well, they did not provide proper training for those seller. Did such training exist in Singapore?

[jwuog]

Try CRS Haven or Biotope, I got red nose aka pinocchio shrimp from these 2 places.

If I remember correctly from petshrimp, they are freshwater, only the young needs brackish water to survive, like yamato.

In fact, I have a couple that has been with me for 3+ months? and seem to be doing fine.