Color enhancing

[mobile2007]

Hi All,

Finally i got hold of some astaxanthin and my diy fish food seems to be accepted by my apistogramma. Itchy hand, wanted to try out.

So, the question is, what level of astaxanthin is suitable for the fishes and yet not harm the health of the fishes? Anyone has any experiences on this?

I know the level of astaxanthin in the naturose ( abt 1.58% ), and with this i can calculate the ppm level. For example, 1 gram of asta to 500g food turns out to be around 31 ppm.

I heard cyclop-eeze ( artic copepod ) has level of 3200ppm and is the secret weapon of german to enhance their apisto super red ( of course selective breeding plays an important role ) .

[Jitticus]

I recall overhearing a discus breeder using about 10% astaxanthin per kg of food. That is quite alot.

[mobile2007]

I presumed they using the algae/compound containing astaxanthin. Assuming 1.5% content,

- 10% ( 100g ) to 1kg of food
- ( 100 g * 0.015) / 1000 -> 1500 ppm

Quite high but cyclop-eeze has a level of 3000ppm.

[illumnae]

discus breeders usually use 1-2% astaxathin in their beefheart mix.

[StanChung]

There is no hard and fast rule but I believe slow and steady would be less taxing on your dear pet's livers and kidneys.
The tip of a teaspoon of the product or one little heap of the McD coffee stirrer for a kg of food should be ok.
Remember that you are feeding it food. The more they eat the more 'coloured' they will get.

This is the same dilemma for those people putting medication in food.

[mobile2007]

Yup, many will recommend slow and steady. Just that i want to know more accurate number on how much ppm of astaxanthin to be used and how other people in other countries managed to get such intense "red" color on thier fishes.

Anyway, for apisto i don't think the effect will be instant. Doing all this probably just for the fun and curiousity ( itchy hands and legs haha ).

[StanChung]

Yes, I suggest you put a very teeny bit into the food and mix it. Mix in more and stop before the whole food mix becomes a really sickly deep red colour that just looks toxic! I know it doesn't sound helpful but when you put too much colouring, the meat will look like it's dripping colour everywhere.

[mobile2007]

thanks stanchung, very good suggestion. Normally i just mixed the asta powder+ spirulina+ bioearth together with the gelatine ( abt 10ml ) to form a sticky solution. After that, dump the sticky solution into the shrimp paste and blend them. As i also added spirulina, this time the color appears to be dark green/purple.

Just a point here, I think shrimp paste as a DIY food base is good. Almost all fishes like it, even without any additives. With a blender, only 10 minutes to mix the food.

[StanChung]

Yes shrimp is easier to blend than beefheart. I blew two 1000W blenders already because of beefheart!
I dissolve the colouring additive with about 2-3 tablespoons warm water and mix it in little by little so that the fish doesn't gulp a lump of colouring!
Reminds me, some of my red discus really needs some 'pop' in their colour now.

[marle]

Have a few points to offer better colouration for Apistogramma.

1) For Wild Caught Apistogramma(not sure for discus and other fishes), I find that the colour of fishes tend to be most vibrant when given a mix of food(Best to replicate what nature gives it). Divide appropriate portions into 3 times daily.

First feed: Dry processed food such as NLS, ADA-AP2 or Tetrabits for the vitamins.
Second feed: Live or frozen food such as blood worms, brine shrimps.
Third Feed: Your do-it-yourself food with added asthaxanthin and spirulina.

This routine enhances colour as well as immense growth.

2) The water condition must be of a lower pH coupled with black water and some Dennerle S7 added.

3) Gravel must not be light colour, the darker the better I think. I have sandy substrate and dark substrate such as magic soil. Added the same Diplotaenia in both tanks, when its in the first one, his body colour is constantly pale probably due its natural camouflaging features. However, when I put him into the latter, the fish’s vibrant colours came on.

4) Selective breeding.

5) Bigger tank with hiding spaces to ensure optimal development.

[mobile2007]

Bro Marle, those not just pointers, in fact very comprehensive guide to apisto keeping.

BTW, which black water additive did you used ? Also, I find that the color of ADA africana soil a bit light, but it is good as i don't need to bother with the pH too much.

I think my mouth also itchy, i took 1/4 teaspoon of the naturose algae and mixed it with water. And i drank that. Taste wise, the fishy smell/taste kinda of disguising. haha. No, i didn't have any diaharia after that. Maybe my hair color will be "enhanced" ? haha

[marle]

Bro Marle, those not just pointers, in fact very comprehensive guide to apisto keeping.

BTW, which black water additive did you used ? Also, I find that the color of ADA africana soil a bit light, but it is good as i don't need to bother with the pH too much.

I think my mouth also itchy, i took 1/4 teaspoon of the naturose algae and mixed it with water. And i drank that. Taste wise, the fishy smell/taste kinda of disguising. haha. No, i didn't have any diaharia after that. Maybe my hair color will be "enhanced" ? haha

I used Sera's brand of black water additive. If you have a bit of spare cash, put a layer of ADA Amazonia over your existing Africana soil to achieve the look.

Haha, i am really not sure about Naturose algae for human consumption, but nonetheless, it proves that you are en route to becoming one hardcore fish guy.

[grouper]

discus breeders usually use 1-2% astaxathin in their beefheart mix.

Last time i use ABOUT 5 to 10g per kg of beefheart for discus

[exotic_idiot]

Is colour enhancing foods really that good?
Won't it hurt the fishes if use it long term?
Any side effect? Like shorter life or prone to illness?

[mobile2007]

Color enhancing food too wide topic to comment. Over here, mainly i am interested in the red color spectrum using astaxanthin.

Based on what i read on the internet, the astaxanthin ( naturose) that i am using, is actually one form of marine micro algae, just like spirulina. So, i doubt that this will have any side/harmful effect, in fact will improved the survival rate.

However, on the market, there are many synthetic astaxanthin. Those are reported to be harmful to the fishes.

[marle]

Heard from bro joe last time that the light spectrum/colour of light bulb you use might affect the colour of the fish too.

Might have heard wrongly, maybe joe can help.

[exotic_idiot]

I know nothing about colour enhancing but really wish to give it a try?
Any dry foods to recommend? If have to mix then I can't because not enough time for me to feed slowly..

[mobile2007]

Lighting wise, i read on the net that natural sunlight will promote more vibrant color ? hear say only.

Dry food/pellet wise, mostly they would not reveal % of astaxanthin inside. So, not sure which brand is reliable. Also, astaxanthin quite sensitive to heat, so once they are processed into pellets, most of the content might be degraded.

[grouper]

Is colour enhancing foods really that good?
Won't it hurt the fishes if use it long term?
Any side effect? Like shorter life or prone to illness?

Personal view, if you use natural extract type non chemical and moderate usage should be ok. Previously, I mix my own beefheart with astaxnithin no problem, discus fish eating well and breeding but remember dont add too much fish dont like too strong astaxnithin.

[apistomaster]

Yes shrimp is easier to blend than beefheart. I blew two 1000W blenders already because of beefheart!
I dissolve the colouring additive with about 2-3 tablespoons warm water and mix it in little by little so that the fish doesn't gulp a lump of colouring!
Reminds me, some of my red discus really needs some 'pop' in their colour now.

Hi Stan,
Welcome to the burned up blender club.
For you and everyone else making their own beef heart blend fish foods I recommend buying an electric meat grinder. I bought a Waring Pro meat grinder for less than US$80. Using the meat grinder first does a couple of good things.
1. The grinder plates remove much of the traces of skin, fat and connective tissue out of the mix that are impossible to remove by hand.
2. The ground meat greatly reduces the work load and time on for the blender.
I promise you will never regret buying a meat grinder after the first time you use it.

On the subject of adding the natural astaxanthin, the exact amount is not critical. Just used a little common sense and use it in moderation. The effects are cumulative over time so high doses do not directly relate to high colors attained faster. I add a tablespoon of freeze dried Cyclop-Eeze to 2 liters of blend as my source of natural astaxanthin. many Apistogramma and Discus do not like Spirulina powder so I use no more than 1 teaspoon of the powder to 2 liters of blend or less. You want your mix to stay red. If it comes out gray or green you are using too much and a little Spirulina goes a long ways but it is an excellent source of astaxanthin despite the chlorophyl color.
Other additives I use in my blends are earth worm flakes and freeze dried blood worms. Both are good fish foods and the blood worms add a little chiton which is helpful fiberous roughage for digestion as well as high in protein. There is a physical attribute of the blood worms that is useful. I add both the former and latter after completing all the blending and fold gently by hand the flakes and blood worms. By not breaking down the blood worms you will realize an effect similar to fiber reinforced concrete. The blood worms help hold the mix together thus allowing for a slight reduction in the amount of your binder be it unflavored gelatin or agar powder dissolved in hot water.
Beef heart that is ground means less of water is needed to blend it thoroughly. Then as the freshly packaged portions of food are beginning to freeze, the earthworm flakes and freeze dried blood worms absorb even more of the free water. This means that your finished product will have better cohesion in the aquarium and yet because the reduced amount of binder needed, it makes the pieces easier for the fish to tear into.
I hope sharing some of my techniques prove useful to everyone. I first began making my own frozen beef heart blends back in 1969 so I have tried many techniques but that electric meat grinder is a home run.