DIY Chillers

[Greenmanbacchus]

Hey Everyone
I'm new here....glad to be here
In November, I got a pair of axolotls ( which are neotenic salamanders...they maintain gills their whole life and so are kept like fish.) I'd never heard of aquarium chillers before. Most everything I have likes to be warm. These are cold-water critters...anywhere in the 60s F is OK...best to stay out of the 70sF.
Another wrinkle is that they are calm-water critters...more than a little current in the water column stresses them badly. As of now, they are singly housed in 2.5 (12"X6"X8"H) aquaria. I've got a single computer fan cooling both end-to-end tanks by hanging it between them. They're stable at 64-5 F. Summer is coming, my A/C will run constantly....however I'm concerned that once hot weather comes, I may have a problem keeping them in the 60sF
They're about to be upgraded to a 20L and housed together.
Even with A/C, the ambient temp in the house is likely to be in the high 70sF. I'm considering a 4-fan setup...but I don't know that this will give me the desired result in a 20L. Any thoughts, anyone?
A store-bought chiller is....well gee, guys...they're expensive
If I had a 100gal (or bigger) marine aquarium stocked with hundreds of dollars of fish, sure...I'd just get a chiller.
Right now, in the 2.5gals I just do 100% water changes once a week and it's been working fine (and easy enough) . These are very dirty creatures, so the 20L's gonna hafta be filtered...probably an undergravel filter as well...weekly 100%s in a 20L ain't happenin'
So....my challenge is to maintain 65 F with minimal current even through the summer when the ambient house temp will likely be near 80F. I'd appreciate any input that your experience may have.
Thanks

GMB

[tawauboy]

welcome to AQ.
whether a 4-fan setup is sufficient depends on the ambient temperature and the relative humidity. lower humidity allows fans to reduce temperature more. however, the drawback is much higher evaporation rate.

you can check out diy chiller using mini-fridges. these should be good enough and relatively easy to diy. some care needs to be taken to selected the correct heat-exchanger as well as drilling the mini-fridge for pipings.

[Greenmanbacchus]

welcome to AQ.
whether a 4-fan setup is sufficient depends on the ambient temperature and the relative humidity. lower humidity allows fans to reduce temperature more. however, the drawback is much higher evaporation rate.

you can check out diy chiller using mini-fridges. these should be good enough and relatively easy to diy. some care needs to be taken to selected the correct heat-exchanger as well as drilling the mini-fridge for pipings.

Thanks for your quick response I'll look into
mini-fridges...would a mini-freezer be even better? The ambient temp is likely to be in the high 70sF and I imagine that during the summer the humidity will be fairly high. Even now, with one fan, I'm having a lot of evaporation and adding water to maintain the same water line is a daily task. While that's not such a big deal, all the same, the more 'low-maintenance' I can get this tank to be, the better. Some months ago, I had looked a little into water coolers.
The company that provides my work with bottled water and water cooler can sell me a re-man water cooler for well under $100.00.
I wonder which one is preferable...a water cooler or a mini-fridge?

GMB

[tawauboy]

a water cooler can be used as well. you'll need to look at the heat exchanger. it should not be made of copper.
also, you need to look at the cooling capacity. you can search for formulas to calculate the cooling needed based on your local conditions.

[BFG]

Google Pykrete.

[Greenmanbacchus]

Google Pykrete.

Hey BFG Thanks for your response! I Googled Pykrete immediately...in fact, I see that I actually saw the Mythbusters episode where they built a boat out of 'SuperPykrete'...I just didn't remember that name.
Ummm...OK...do please forgive my denseness....how does Pykrete address my chilling issues?
I look forward to hearing from you!
GMB

[Greenmanbacchus]

a water cooler can be used as well. you'll need to look at the heat exchanger. it should not be made of copper.
also, you need to look at the cooling capacity. you can search for formulas to calculate the cooling needed based on your local conditions.

Hey Tawauboy Thank you for responding so quickly!
The last few days have been 'unseasonably warm' here with temps nearly 30 degrees C. Tonight it will rain and we should resume 'normal' seasonal temps of around 15 C. Meanwhile, I've had the air conditioner on to keep the tank cool enough. A water temp of anywhere from 13 C to a max of 20 C is acceptable (provided the temp is not too fluctual). Anything over 21 C is stressful....extended exposures to 24 C and up is catastrophic. Once my digital laser thermometer registered 21 C...on went the A/C. I'll check and see if the cooler I'm looking at has a non-copper heat exchanger. In my research, I've seen that some people will coat their copper with plastic...a product called Plasti-Dip...so as to avoid direct water contact with copper...ions, electrolysis etc. I wonder how much that lessens the conductivity of the heat exchanger? Clearly, the best option is to avoid copper altogether. Titanium is good, but expensive...aluminum....well, I don't know...aluminum causes health problems in other areas, so it might not be good to use. Stainless steel might be good, but I've heard varying reports on its safety. Of course, aluminum and titanium etc would only enter into the equation if I stepped away from the DWC and tried an entirely different DIY effort.
Hopefully a drinking water cooler will do what I need.
Once again...I appreciate the help that I'm getting from you and from everyone here on AQ
GMB

[BFG]

Hey BFG Thanks for your response! I Googled Pykrete immediately...in fact, I see that I actually saw the Mythbusters episode where they built a boat out of 'SuperPykrete'...I just didn't remember that name.
Ummm...OK...do please forgive my denseness....how does Pykrete address my chilling issues?
I look forward to hearing from you!
GMB

Well, since getting a chiller is expensive, why not make a few bottle of pykrete. You could alternate using them for your amphibian setup. Use smaller bottles of pykrete to gauge how the bottled pykrete can lowered the water temperature. I recommend smaller bottles instead of large ones as you can have some control of how low the water temperature can reach which a large bottled might lower the temperature further down than what you were aiming for. You have to experiment with this first before implementing on your axolotls setup. Pykrete last longer than regular ice.


Hope this helps!

[Greenmanbacchus]

Well, since getting a chiller is expensive, why not make a few bottle of pykrete. You could alternate using them for your amphibian setup. Use smaller bottles of pykrete to gauge how the bottled pykrete can lowered the water temperature. I recommend smaller bottles instead of large ones as you can have some control of how low the water temperature can reach which a large bottled might lower the temperature further down than what you were aiming for. You have to experiment with this first before implementing on your axolotls setup. Pykrete last longer than regular ice.


Hope this helps!

Ahhh...I see Thanks BFG!
I'm still mulling over the DWC option. On the other hand, since I will not need to use a chiller all year 'round...it may be that I can get away with a styrofoam cooler full of ice that is set up as you would a minii-fridge. Pykrete would be the 'ice' of choice in that case.....I like the idea of bottles in that application...much easier to R&R. I just hooked up a little Whisper Filter ( suitable for a 5-10 gal tank) and hung it on a 10 gal that I have to experiment with water flow. The application is sump rather than filter. I'm thinking of hanging the coils or whatever heat exchanger I wind up with inside the filter....be it DWC or fridge or styrofoam cooler. There wouldn't any any room left in there for filter media anyway. So far, it's not looking good...that little Whisper is creating a LOT of current . Axolotls are easily stressed by current and require relatively still water. Perhaps it won't be so strong in a 20L....that'll be the next test. I wonder...is there any reason why the coils should not go directly into the aquarium...say in a corner?
If I don't need to use a sump, that'd take care of the problems with current. Thanks for your help
GMB

[Amar Azhar]

i dont know if your axies are with you or not, but my axies are in referigerator right now....

[Greenmanbacchus]

i dont know if your axies are with you or not, but my axies are in referigerator right now....

Hey Amar it's good to hear from you!It's been a bit unseasonably cool here.
I'm only just thnking of setting the fans up for the season. On the other hand, my digital laser thermometer says that their water is at 22-23C, and they appear to be doing just fine. I'll put the fans up probably this weekend...no sense taking chances I keep my refrigerator at near-freezing...likely colder than ideal for an axie. In my experience, anywhere between 18-21 C will serve your axie well.
GMB
[email protected]

[Amar Azhar]

hahaha.... thanks for the info... mine are looking fine too, i keep them in the refrigerator and they are eating very well, so thats fine to me enough.. mine have some gills problem, so i move them into my refrigerator because of that, the problem here in this region, the temperature is high, if not treated like a king, you will defenetly loose them, glad to hear from you.. thanks.. i upload the info of them next..

[Greenmanbacchus]

hahaha.... thanks for the info... mine are looking fine too, i keep them in the refrigerator and they are eating very well, so thats fine to me enough.. mine have some gills problem, so i move them into my refrigerator because of that, the problem here in this region, the temperature is high, if not treated like a king, you will defenetly loose them, glad to hear from you.. thanks.. i upload the info of them next..

Temperature is definitely important. Now, what about the water quality?
If the water gets too dirty, gill problems ( and other problems) may manifest.
Axies are creatures that dirty their water rather quickly and must be monitored with that in mind. Tap water usually contains chlorine, flourides and other things that are bad for fish (and axies). If allowed to age for at least 24 hours, most of these undesirable elements evaporate. Axies are almost extinct in the wild state due to habitat destruction, however they are very widely kept as laboratory specimens and so are readily available in a variety of morphs.
Typically, laboratory specimens are kept in Holtfreter's solution. Personally, I use aged tap water with one teaspoon of salt per gallon...the salt (IMO) is an important additive to avoid fungus and other problems. It's also important to remember that in any 'solution', while water may evaporate and the water level get lower, the salts remain in full...point being: top off your tanks with fresh water rather than adding more solution. Here is a link to Holtfreter's solution as well as a number of helpful sites that you may already have: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holtfreter's_solution

I look forward to hearing from you Amar

GMB
[email protected]

[Amar Azhar]

yeah, these guy are definetlly dirty, i try the salt solution but the unfortunely my axies died due to the treatment, is so sad, so now, if fungal problem i give them this, i put the multi vitamin in the water (common tank multi vitamin) and the fungal insfection will stop rapidly and during that time, i store them in the refregerator for few weeks...

[stormhawk]

Understandably, you may love your Axolotls Amar, but since you and me come from a tropical zone, perhaps it would be best to consider keeping some other tropical species of Salamander.

Salt may irritate the sensitive skins of amphibians, in your case the axolotls, so use with caution. Since axolotls are messy tank inhabitants, they should be given the same kind of treatment like Red Eared Sliders, which are massive poop machines. Cut down on feedings and perhaps waste production will be reduced. Increase filtration if you have to.

To GMB, if your tank is small enough then perhaps you can consider an IceProbe chiller. To fit this you need to bore a hole through one of the tank glass so this might be risky. Alternative is to use those TEM-type chillers like the Dolphin brand stuff, or whatever you can find in the USA. In Singapore, people just go for the big chillers like those from Arctica/Hailea etc. Personally, I rather just keep animals that can survive in the climate I live in, and let others worry about their coolwater critters and their bigger electricity bill. Keeping a pet should not be excessively stressful.

[Amar Azhar]

tawauboy; may i ask? did you know where i can find this iceprobe chiller???

[Greenmanbacchus]

Understandably, you may love your Axolotls Amar, but since you and me come from a tropical zone, perhaps it would be best to consider keeping some other tropical species of Salamander.

Salt may irritate the sensitive skins of amphibians, in your case the axolotls, so use with caution. Since axolotls are messy tank inhabitants, they should be given the same kind of treatment like Red Eared Sliders, which are massive poop machines. Cut down on feedings and perhaps waste production will be reduced. Increase filtration if you have to.

To GMB, if your tank is small enough then perhaps you can consider an IceProbe chiller. To fit this you need to bore a hole through one of the tank glass so this might be risky. Alternative is to use those TEM-type chillers like the Dolphin brand stuff, or whatever you can find in the USA. In Singapore, people just go for the big chillers like those from Arctica/Hailea etc. Personally, I rather just keep animals that can survive in the climate I live in, and let others worry about their coolwater critters and their bigger electricity bill. Keeping a pet should not be excessively stressful.

Thanks, Stormhawk, for your feedback I agree...it was quite a shock seeing how difficult and/or expensive
keeping coldwater animals can be. I live in a temperate zone and so, most tropical pets need to have added heat. Adding heat is easy, and anyone who lives in a climate that requires home heating in the winter and home air conditioning in the summer can tell you that it's much easier (and cheaper!) to make a home hotter than it is to make it colder. I did look into the IceProbe last year ( nice tip...thanks ) For my application, the IceProbe does not cool sufficiently, although I'm sure that it may work wonderfully
for many other applications. As it turns out, the four fan setup seems to work very well for me We had a power outage for 14 hours last summer during one of the hottest days of the season and the temperatures outside were around 38C (100F) ! Even so, my axies did not seem to be affected. I guess that if they get a little too warm for only a day or two at a time, they will manage well. Once again, Stormhawk, thanks for your advice...I'm grateful to you and everyone on AQ...such a wonderful resource
to have available
GMB

[Greenmanbacchus]

IceProbe chillers are widely available, Amar...here, for example:
http://www.marinedepot.com/chillers_...eprobe-ap.html
If you Google iceprobe, you will find many more.
Also, I found many available on eBay...sometimes cheaper too.
I purchased my 4-fan setup from eBay ( about $40.00 USD )
A little salt in the water is good...too much is bad.
Dr. John Clare has a good site on axies: http://www.axolotl.org/
Keep us posted
GMB

[Shaihulud]

Aquarium chillers are pretty inefficient, especially for cooling temperature down to 60F with an ambient temperature of around 80F! The glass wall of the tank is poor as an insulating medium and also heat gain from the water layer with air, the electricity bill would be quite high and the chiller would have a shortened life I think. I would put the tank in a foam box or build some such structure around the tank.

[Amar Azhar]

yeah, i know that ice probe is very good solution for small aquarium like mine, but sadlly, we dont have iceprobe in malaysia, we only have this expensive chiller at out store, there are few things that can stress axolotls.
1.heat
2.water flow
for now i just used fan and no flow in my tank which means no fillter, cause i do frequent water change, juz give the best for them..