Very high NO3 causes BBA problem

[naturetan]

Dear all,

Here's the feedback for my tank problem discussed previously: Need help - high NO3 level

It has been about 3 months before I've managed to solve my tank problem that is infested with BBA, without resetting my whole tank. A rather laborious process that somehow forces me to take a closer look at the water column nutrients in details, and with patience.

The cause of my BBA problem, I can say is mainly due to very high NO3 seeping out from my base fertiliser that I overdose. Shall describe to you how I derive at such conclusion.

1) Suspect Test kit inacurracy as discussed. So I start working on my water column fertiliser, hoping things will get better.

2) My dosing starts in the additional sequence as follows(all once a week):
C -> Check CO2 (KH/PH) -> ~30ppm
K -> 30ppm (K2SO4)
Ca -> Coral Chips
Mg -> Coral Chips with 3ppm of MgSO4
At the end of about a month, I'm dosing all this but BBA still spreading.

3) Start dosing P at 1ppm too, once a week. Still the same problem.

4) Increase dosage of P to twice a week, up to 3 times a week, doing 50% water changes after a week. Same problem.

5) Completely use estimative method, each week in addition of No. 2, I dose:
NO3 -> 8 - 10ppm
PO4 -> 0.8 - 1ppm
Even increase frequency from 2X to 3X
Observed that the more frequent I dose N & P, the worse BBA become.

6) I gave up doing guessing game, and bought another Sera NO3 test kit to confirm. Surprisingly, readings is still >40ppm, which tally with the result of Tetra NO3 test kit!

7) Decided to stop dosing NO3 and hope plants will help reduce it with P dosing. Only some signs of improvement on BBA after a week, but NO3 still very high.

It still keeps going with high NO3 for some weeks before I'm about to give up any hope and do the resetting. One day after a large 70% water changed, NO3 drops to about 30ppm, BBA significantly reduced after a week!

9) Finally, after about 2 weeks, NO3 drop to about 5ppm after 50% water change. BBA stops spreading, still have some on woods waiting for me to scrap it off, but no longer can find it at plants.

10) Now, I can comfortably used estimative method to dose, but still check NO3 regularly just to play safe. Algae on walls or plants no longer spread like SARS, and it's just getting cleaner.


To conclude, very high NO3 indeed can cause BBA, I've used estimative method to dose NO3 & PO4 up to 3 times per week with 50% water changed, but result turn worse! With already very high NO3, adding more will make things problematic.

For this case, test kit indeed come in handy, I've to admit! However, please note that I've not tested P throughout the whole process.

Feel free to comment if you've any. Thanks.

[PeterGwee]

Naturetan, did you do the estimative index method with 50% or more weekly large water change? The method relies on your CO2 level heavily plus the water change...if you miss either of it, the thing would go out of whack. Oh I did not see any addition of trace elements being added?

Yes, high NO3 would destablize a system and cause lots of different type of algae and not one...I still don't believe the test kit though...[] ..Double check your pH/KH values...what type of stuff are you using to measure pH? A titration type with very narrow range can be used but little shaking is needed..a pH test pen suits the task better.

The estimative method works by assuming a certain of uptake by plants..for example, a max uptake of NO3 in a very high light tank is 3-4ppm per day. You dose 30ppm of NO3 assuming max uptake of 4ppm per day while not letting it bottom out..but what if the plants are not growing well? Uptake is slower....that is when the large water change comes in. Miss that one and buildup would happen.

[geoffrey]

Tan, I am interested to know how your NO3 drops. If it is from leaching, I find it hard to accept that after that 70% water change, the concentration starts tailing off subsequently. Something must have accelerated its uptake. How long was it before you realise you NO3 has fall?

[naturetan]

As mentioned in steps 5, I started estimative method with 50% water change per week. That time, I'm assuming my test kit is problematic. Things get from bad to worse, when I increase dose to 3X of N, P, and traces. Tank became very heavily infected due to the NO3 I dose. Took me more then 6 hrs to clear it up.

Forget about trace element. I dose it together with the frequency of N & P. About 0.5ppm per dose for Dr. Mallick micros. Same for estimative method.

For CO2 reading, refer to No. 2. That time, I increased it further from PH6.5 to about PH6.3 maintaining at KH 3. This give >30ppm, but BBA didn't get any better. I'm using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals for PH test kit, and Taiwan CO2 ball type reactor. Can't really afford a PH test pen.

Other than NO3, I'm dosing all nutrients using estimative method. I dose P and traces 2X a week. Since the start of the problem, I've never failed to do large water change of 50% per week. Initially make 2X 50% water change when problem are real bad.

My tank has been running near to a month since NO3 drops <40ppm. I wouldn't say no more BBA, but only few appearing at the exposed woods after a week. It took less than 1 minute to clear those BBA, compare to more than 6 hours initially! Results has been consistent since 3 weeks already. Since then, plants just keep growing better and bigger. I'm so haapy with my tank now.[]

[naturetan]

Geoffrey, my NO3 don't drop out of sudden. Initially I thought by dosing more P, N will drop quickly, but I'm wrong. Fertilizer seep up faster than what plants can intake. Changing 50% water or even more per week doesn't help, since NO3 just keep going up very high again after few days.

I'm like waiting for such seepage to get exhausted, doing 50% water change per week. It took about 2-3 months before such thing happened. From about 70ppm to 30ppm took more than 2 months. After 30ppm, things starts dropping quite fast every 50% water change per week - from 15ppm to 5 ppm per water change.

All the time, I'm giving a higher dose for my PO4, about 2-3X of 1ppm KH2PO4, just to aid NO3 intake.

[tawauboy]

what base fertiliser are you using?
how thick is the gravel covering your base fertiliser?
isn't most commercial base fertiliser free of n and p?
why don't you consider add some gravel to reduce the fertiliser seepage?

[vinz]

On possibility that the NO3 has dropped, is that the ferts you were using are depleted.

Actually, I have had high NO3... as high as 100+ ppm and had no algae problems. Probable reasons: low PO4 and other nutrients as I was using Flourish and Flourish's recommended dosage is more than 10 times less concentrated then TMG or LushGRO Aqua's recommended dosage. You may want to look into reducing you fert dosage... experiment with lower dosages and see if your plants actually slow down.

BTW, to prevent confusion, base fert is the layer of fert added initially. For stuff in insert subsequently, use "root fert", "fert stick/tabs", etc. I got confused, wondering why your base fert has NO3.

[vinz]

Tawauboy, read the thread he linked. I got confused by the base fert and NO3 issue too, but that thread clears it all up.

[FC]

Seng Yong,

"A rather laborious process that somehow forces me to take a closer look at the water column nutrients in details, and with patience"

So, after going through that, am I right to say that:
1) it is better than resetting?
2) you learnt precious lesson from it?




Regards,

Freddy Chng

P.S. Well done! You did not disappoint me.

[naturetan]

Taiwan base fertiliser, stuff in too many than required. Stuff in one packet of slow release type, then greedy, stuff in another intensive type. This is where problem started. That is what I've initially thought, and has been discussed in the previous posting as stated. But somehow, N keep going very high despite cleaning most of the gravel and wood, not to mentioned very low bioload.

Yes, have add in gravel up to about 10cm at back and 5cm or more at front, doesn't seems to help for a 2ft with 35cm height tank that time.

[naturetan]

Freddy,

I love to learnt from mistakes. Resetting the tank is a faster and easier solution to this problem, and I would do that next time if such things happened again. Hopefully not! [:0] [:0] []

However, if not for this problem, I would not have learnt so much. Though it's a difficult lessons, I'm glad I managed to pull it through and understand many invaluable things without resetting. As a newbie, would have easily given up and throw my tank away! If not for you, whom have been helpfully & personally guided me throughout this difficult and confusing process.

Moreover, without research done at AQ site for members and Tom Barr's posting, it will not have given me a good insight of different things to solve such problem.

Thanks to you and all for sharing.

Seng Yong

[naturetan]

Vincent, agree with you that NO3 dropped after ferts get depleted.

Whenever I dose only once a week of PO4 & traces, I get more green spot algae. Only increasing it to 2X will get rid of spots.

As you mentioned, it's true that not only NO3 is seeping from substrate, but other nutrients too that make the water too concentrated for algae to grow.

Your suggestion is noted and I've to agree that all the while, I'm working towards a solution that excessive nutrients will not cause any problems, except NO3. Thus, I overlook this aspect of dosing less of other nutrients.

[geoffrey]

I agree with Freddy and yourself that resetting is not the way out. Glad you did not reset. But I must correct you, resetting though easier is not the solution because you did not solve the root cause and rectify the problem. After resetting, the problem will continue to haunt you again.

I sought the easy way when I started and I reset 3 times. Really stupid of me to take 3 times to realise my weakness.

Tan, I am just curious about the leaching part. I seriously doubt the base fertiliser has stopped leaching after 2~3 months, I believe it needs longer. Could it be possible that your plants are doing very well now so much so uptake is faster than leaching?

[naturetan]

Geoffrey, just for your info, during the past few months, I'm just basically spending lots of time(perhaps 4hrs or more) removing stubbon BBA for every water changes. Just like a nightmare during that period. []

Can't really explain to you why. But it has not really stop leaching, that's why I'm still consistently doing 50% water change and dose only once a week of N or sometimes not. I doubt that plants is able to uptake at faster leaching initially. However, now it's possible as leaching gets weaker.

Why? Highest uptake for NO3 is about 4ppm/day. Initially, when I made 50% water changes and take NO3 reading after 2 days, it's already >40ppm. How to possibly reduce NO3 to low level when NO3 keep going so high within just 2 days?

[geoffrey]

I asked because my base fertiliser (potting soil) hasn't stop leaching PO4 after so many months. Mine is potting soil instead of the fert tabs you use. Hey Tan, do you have any of those fert tab leftovers? Maybe can do an experiment by popping one into a litre of water and see if the leaching rate is indeed very fast. It won't take longer than 2 days for that test.

[naturetan]

Unfortunately I don't have any leftovers. I've basically stuffed everything I've got into the substrate. So greedy am I! Now basically everything melted in powdery form and it's difficult to remove. From the brand package, it's stated it's meant to be an intensive fertiliser meant for the roots.

There's still one spot that I stuffed in too much of that. That's where the Rotala Macrandra grows. Thought that more the merrier, since not doing well that time. End up that I've dark red-brown leaves for the plants, but those spot with little of that, has a beautiful red leaves.

Anyway, your suggestion will be interesting to find out. In case I managed to get those stuff to try...

[vinz]

Hehehe... Seng Yong got almost everyone confused. Its the root fert he inserted that are leaching not what we commonly refer to as basefert.

Geoff... potting soil? Next time consider Aquatic Compost... I don't have PO4 problems with that.

[FC]

There are alot of well researched fertilizers around, I had seen those from Taiwan works very well too. Non-conventional fertilizers like the Horti stick, Horti tab, Jobes stick, potting soil, peat, etc can also be used. The question lies in the understanding of how to deploy them.

I give my own case as an example. How many Jobes/Horti stick, would you insert in a 4ft tank as a start? I inserted 2.5 packs of them in one go. That is 70 sticks? I cannot remember. Problem? No.
Why not?
3 main reasons:
1) Understanding of the stick ingredients & its' characteristic, under gravel water convection (without gravel heater for my case)
2) I have thick gravel
3) The knowledge in deploying the sticks

I had discussed in depth with Seng Yong on algae issue both at his place and during numerous long calls. Seng Yong is knowledgeable and quick enough to digest the problem he is facing. We came down with the following options:
1) Simply add more gravel to slow down the NO3 leaks
- It was not used because the addition would make the gravel thickness out of proportion vs the tank height
2) Vacuum the upper gravel layer, wash them & place them back, to reduce the base fert.
- Not viable because the base fert happened to be layed at the mid layer, doing that would simply remove most of the base fert.
3) The filter was too strong for his tank that it encourage the fert leak rate
- outlet was diverted away from gravel
4) Give up & reset
- Almost chicken-out (after months of grilling) but Seng Yong decided no. He wanted to face and fight it.

What to do next?
He figured out that his priority enemy is NO3, the rest were of no immediate threat. However, it was high in concentration. So, like what he mentioned, he tried to balanced it with K, PO4, etc. He also did a 3 days black out, etc. The plants came out stronger and finally, the NO3 was tamed and BBA reduced.

The base fert may have lost its' concentration along the way but without the path he took, the plants may not had benifited.

What can I say, well done!


Best regards,

Freddy Chng

[geoffrey]

Vinz, the high PO4 isn't a problem although I was bothered by it initially. In the begin, I was very number oriented, always striving to get within the recommended concentration for PO4, NO3 and Fe with the brief that those magical numbers would guarantee an algae free tank. That only made things worst but now, not anymore.

[vinz]

I don't think those numbers were meant to guarantee a algae free tank, but they do makes things a little simpler by providing targets to aim for. Come to think of it, they probably helped ppl with deficiencies in those nutrients more then ppl with excesses.