Very high NO3 causes BBA problem

[PeterGwee]

If the algae is established in a tank already, getting the nutrients in range does not mean the algae would just go away. You would still need to do the necessary maintenance to get rid of it. The targeted nutrient range is for the plants to grow well...

[naturetan]

I think most people have deficiencies rather than excesses. It's really troublesome if we're fanatics about the numbering. But keeping too high the excess of many nutrients for too long, IMO, will probably cause some problem. This I've experimented with dosing everything using the estimative method, and 3 times a week as describe above. That's also the reason why Tom Barr suggested a large water changes after sometime, else it's going to be problematic.

In several of Tom Barr's articles, his experiment with excess of PO4, as well as traces, for certain period is not an issue at all. This I believe when most of the parameters are in place, and only driving one parameters at super high to see there's no problem. However, he suggested that NO3 should be kept down to have less issues. This I quote:


"I've driven the NO3 up to 75ppm for 3 weeks once but had low PO4 to see what might happen, not much really. But the longer term effects would likely cause issues. This tank had no fish but lots of snails.

Keep the NO3 down, you'll have less issues if you do." - Tom Barr


For my experiment, P & traces, I've tried at high level, but N at very high level. This lead to a heavily infested of BBA, and I'm sure there's no deficiency but excess.

Thus, I think likewise:-
1) When PO4 is very high, NO3 is OK, no algae issue.
2) When PO4 is OK, NO3 is very high, possible algae issue after certain period.
3) When PO4 is high/very high(this I can't confirm), NO3 is very high, algae issue. For my case, traces are high too.

That is why NO3 should be kept down to acceptable level by regular water changes, else fishes and plants in long run will suffer. This I've proven that as stated in this posting.

[theodore]

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On 7/11/2003 11:21:15 AM

1) When PO4 is very high, NO3 is OK, no algae issue.
2) When PO4 is OK, NO3 is very high, no algae issue.
3) When PO4 is high/very high(this I can't confirm), NO3 is very high, algae issue. For my case, traces are high too.

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I believe our attempts to correct the deficiency by bringing nutrients back to the recommended levels do not slow down algae growth directly. On the contrary, (logically speaking) algae should be able to achieve maximum growth since conditions cannot be better. We get the impression that algae growth is slowing after a while because the rate of plant growth exceeded algae growth - Very aparent in fast growing stem plants like MMs and Cabomba. And haven't we noticed that we get less algae on young growing leaves vs mature leaves?

My NO3 is btwn 20-30ppm and PO4 can go as high as 2ppm (cos I have a bad habit of breaking my root monsters into 2-3 pieces before stuffing them under the gravel).

IMO, poor plant growth, not high NO3 and PO4, causes algae problem. Of course, the problem is worse for slow-growing plants (certain crypts only send out 1 leaf a month) since there is no way they can grow faster than some species of algae. However, that's what algae eaters are for right?

[geoffrey]

I think we should also clarify what those concentration numbers mean. Should it be the numbers we want to maintain in the tank or should it be the amount we want to dose. I personally feel that there is a big different between the two.

As far as I know, those numbers widely accepted are concentration of nutrients we want to maintain all the time in the tank and are not dosing quantity. Dosing varies from tank to tank. Factors such as lighting intensity and duration, CO2 level, and type of plants dictates.

Yes, I agree with Tan that failures are more often a result of limiting nutrients given the fact that many are still wary about adding more for fear of algae. As such those who take those numbers as dosing concentration may see problem. Dosing 5~10ppm of NO3 (a number we see regularly) into a tank that consumes it in three days will surely invite trouble in a high light and high CO2 tank. Well, that's how I see it.

[naturetan]

NO3 of 30ppm & PO4 of 2ppm is not very high. If it's consider so, then Tom Barr's estimative method will not work. Since IMO, his method relies on the concept of giving the plants extra nutrients, and what is not taken, will be reset again in a water changes. What I mean by "very high" is about 70ppm or so.

That's the same case where we don't do water changes and allow nutrients to build up. Perhaps we can think in this way, why did he recommend a dose of 2-3X over the week of N, P & traces, instead of dosing it at one big quantity once a week? Doesn't that save the trouble for people like myself whom is lazy?

I agreed with Geoffrey that those numbers accepted are concentration of nutrients we want to maintain all the time in the tank and are not dosing quantity. This logically should be the right concept. However, that will be too cumbersome for those whom dislike testing and don't trust test kit.[] That's the reason why people mention about the dosing amount, which should be the approximate values, excluding whatever is already inside the tank.

This is the case that when I know my tank water NO3 is 5ppm, I dose just another 5ppm to bring it up to a total of 10ppm. Even dosing slightly more is not a problem.

The point I'm trying to say is that we just can't tell everyone that excess nutrients is not a problem, but only deficiency will cause problem. If the case is so, then I would be glad to forget about changing water, and dose large amount of nutrients to run for several months or so. I'll be the first one to do so if possible. []

[PeterGwee]

Okay, Tom Barr's estimative index method is based off his testing results of a very high light tank (110W PC over a 20 gallon tank) with lamotte and hach test kits (pretty precise compared to a reference solution). He found that the max uptake of the high light tank is about 3-4ppm of NO3 per day even at that high light hence dosing 10ppm of NO3 after water change would only last you 2-3 days..a repeat dosing is necessary on the 3-4 day assuming max uptake rate...the water change basically removes the excess if your plants are not growing well and hence uptake is lesser. His method also takes into consideration the amount of N, P, K, GH found in your tap water. Example, if your tap water has a nitrate level of say 15ppm, a 50% water change would give you approximately 7.5ppm of N and that will last you 2-3 days at most base on max uptake..(note that the assumption is also base off that the N cannot drop to zero for more than a day.) Hope that helps...

The tropica article on lighting and CO2 is interesting enough.....if your nutrient levels are high especially N and P why do people ask you to increase your CO2 assuming your light is high? Look at the results...high light and high CO2 pushing growth rate to 4X!!!! Whoa..I am looking at the CO2 thingy closely now....pushing it with watching the pH anymore as the results are funny..my fishes are fine at 56ppm of CO2 without any pH adjusting stuff added at all? I watch them closely though.

The upper limit of CO2 injected is only limited by the critters...plants are fine and simply love it!! []

[theodore]

My rams gave me funny looks when my NO3 went beyond 40ppm once ... I probably wouldn't even want to reach 70ppm for the sake of their well-being.

At what level do you consider PO4 as high? Can't seem to get this piece of info anywhere in this thread. I'm quite curious how critters (fishes and shrimps) would react to various PO4 levels.

[naturetan]

PeterGwee, that's precisely what I'm trying to drive at. To roughly keep to the nutrients range so that plants can become very healthy, as you've stated. The estimative method seems to work based on this principle. IMO, I think it's innovative in this aspect which work for all tank size, and not driving a tank at super high nutrients.

My next stage after this root fertiliser problem (did I get it right, Vincent? [] ) is to experiment with reducing the amount of water change. Perhaps change 35% every week, but 50% after a month or more - to find out if it's possible.

ThEoDoRe, I've showed you the value for NO3, you've to try it out to know for PO4. [] [] []

[squall99e]

My bba grows mostly on my christmas moss and echinodorus tenellus.
It hardly affect the stem plants, glosso and blyxa japonica.
I would removed every bba i see in the tank and replaced with plants that are hardly affected with BBA until the situation improved. I also find that BBA will not go even when your nurtrient level is at the recommended level.
While my others plant increase growth rate at higher co2, light same and higher NO3 PO4 so do my BBA on moss and echinodorus t.


From what i experience, whether my
NO3 5mg PO4 0.5mg
or
NO3 10mg PO4 1mg (BBA on moss grow even faster)
and
Co2 40ppm
k 30ppm
BBA still continue to grow on the above 2 plants.

[theodore]

Naturetan,

*Hai* Thought I can get some easy answers from you since you have been consistently commenting on your high NO3 and high PO4 (so do you or do you not have your readings?).

As much as I would like to try for myself, it's not that easy for me to figure out how high PO4 can get before causing problems to my critters. I'm one of those that have to dose KH2PO4 (at least) once a week to stop PO4 from going to zero.

[naturetan]

From what I understand, PO4 is not really as critical an issue as NO3. There'll be bound to have problems after certain time if NO3 is not in check. There're several whom experience no problem with very high P04, only when NO3 is in check. Make a search in Tom Barr's posting and you should be able to find his findings.

BBA will show no mercy to any sort of plants when it strike real hard, whether stem plant or not. It's just a matter of their speed of growth. When BBA is established in a tank, it will take some time for that tank to clear.

My tank has 70% stem plants & glosso, attacking all when chemistry is not right. It slow down significantly only when I'm able to balance it. After some time, it stop spreading.

BBA is not just cause by NO3 problem. There're still many other factors - lighting, filtration, etc.

[Blue Whale]

Yup I do agree. These experiments becomes necessary once you are the one changing water. It becomes crucial since you are also the "doser" as I would call it. End of the day you do not want to dose "too much" or "too less".

Consider the dosing processing an art. Keeping PO4 and NO3 at the correct portion takes even more observation, not to mention the KH, even though you might have taken the correct Lighting cycle (Mine is at 10hr auto).

To check on water condition, I do not measure them if the fish color are okay. Having buddies and cardinals in the tank, I just take the cue from them. If the color of cardinal changes or the buddies start to have "hunchback like" effect, I know the PH is out.

If I am seeing a lot of snails, (not say the loaches never do their work, ha ha), I know something is wrong with the "dosing process"; [:] which most of time is due to NO3. If necessary, a 10%/20% change of water would also do the trick nicely.

[juggler]

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On 7/11/2003 3:25:18 PM

That's the same case where we don't do water changes and allow nutrients to build up. Perhaps we can think in this way, why did he recommend a dose of 2-3X over the week of N, P & traces, instead of dosing it at one big quantity once a week? Doesn't that save the trouble for people like myself whom is lazy?
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So that toxicity doesn't set in? Excess of certain nutrients can inhibit the uptake of others. Or if nutrients are not taken up by plants fast enough, algae can grow.

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7/11/2003 11:21:15 AM

Thus, I think likewise:-
1) When PO4 is very high, NO3 is OK, no algae issue.
2) When PO4 is OK, NO3 is very high, possible algae issue after certain period.(correction)
3) When PO4 is high/very high(this I can't confirm), NO3 is very high, algae issue. For my case, traces are high too.

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One more: When PO4 went low (0.5ppm) and NO3 low (5 ppm), I found BBA starting to grow on my plants. When I kept PO4 at 1ppm, NO3 at 10ppm, things seem better. Not sure if others experience this too or was it due to more traces I added.

[Blue Whale]

For my 42cm tank, about one size smaller than a standard 2 ft, I dose it as such:

5ml Potassium Flourish
5ml Nitrate Flourish
5ml Iron Supplement
5ml Traces Supplement
Some less than half spoon of bicarbonate of soda, none standard spoon, its smaller.

All these done at the time before aging process in a small pail of abt 2 days or more.

Result:
Plants growing like jungle. Trim every 2 weeks.
Shrimp always climb up the plant to near the surface for sun tan.[]
Nah...they dun jump out of the tank.
algae formation. Clear after 2/3 weeks.
snail formation but are always suck out at each water change.

Very nice to look at and frankly I dun see much of a hassle, quite routine to me. Cardinals at bright blue or bright green, different breeds. Buddies gong gong looking hunting around...always. Loaches and Baba forever hiding unless feeding time. Very tranquil environment.

[naturetan]

KF, You've made good points about the excess.

I agree about algae problem when P/N runs too low. Whether how low then problem sets in is difficult to tell. Usually, to cater for test kits accuracy tolerance, it's better to give more than running at the lower range.

Based on Tom Barr's Estimative Index article about his research on traces, when most of the nutrients are in good shape, dosing high levels has in no way contributed to any algae presence. It's usually the cost of dosing such amount that's the concern.

[theodore]

Let me be blunt then - If one has no idea what the PO4 level is throughout the period, there is no reason to blame one's woes on high NO3 AND HIGH PO4. At the end of the day. If a tank has high light (4+ W/Gal), the algae problem could still be due to PO4 deficiency at the end of the day. For example, at one point in time, my tank's PO4 level is dropping >1ppm in less than a week.

[naturetan]

That's true. That's the reason why we need to dose not only once, but 3X per week if PO4 consumption is really high. Refer to estimative dosing for more details.