A few questions

[Darkkon]

Halow all. Need some answers to a few doubts i have:

1. I noticed in Amano's photos, the bioload is often much higher than the 1 inch per gallon rule. In fact, in one of his 2 ft tank photo i counted at least 50 fishes, and that doesn't include shrimps. Is that really a healthty setup?

2. I bought some cardinal tetras last night, upon putting them into my tank they seem to be suffocating. I suspected it to be high co2 level (sorry dun have co2 test kit, but bubble rate was 1bps) and switched off the co2. True enough they got better after a while. If 25 fishes in my 22 gallon tank have problem, how did Amano put 50?

3. What is suitable food for tetras? I am using flakes now but i noticed that the tetras do not like to swim up for them, and when they sink they ignore them once they hit the ground. Any better substitutes?

Thanks a lot [:]

[joe]

My 2ft moderately planted tank has around 50+ fishes inside. So far so good. Tank has been there for almost a year.

[CT]

My tank have ard the same bioload as you. 12 cardinal tetra, 3 neon tetra, 3 black neon tetra, 3 otto, 3 sae, 2 fake sae with some malayan shrimp(dun know left how many now , initially have ard 70+). The fishes are doing well in my 2 ft tank with CO2 at 1 bps.

Have your tank being cycle?

[BFG]

It could be that Amano or his helper introduce the number of fish slowly. Also his planted tank has a lot of plants. These would help 2 consume the co2 from the large number of fish. Theoretically speaking.

[PeterGwee]

He introduce those fishes only for photography purpose....[:]

[CT]

Is it! You mean that the fish are just added to take photo and then remove?

[bluezing]

same tinking as peter.or maybe his tank may look small..but actually its a 4 footer.[]

and also try not to feed them for 2-3 days.sooner or later they will gulp wateevr u feed them

[eric_kclee]

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If 25 fishes in my 22 gallon tank have problem, how did Amano put 50?
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25 fishes in 22gallon tank is nothing.
I have 34 tetra size fishes in 10gallon tank. which equate to 70fishes in your tank size.

Without air pump assist, 80% plant and, 0.5bps. All breathing gently, even during light off.

Yours should not be a problem if your plant is healthy. Observered the breathing of your tetra without co2, I believe they may be gasping even without the co2. With the introduction of CO2, they feel more stress.

[PeterGwee]

Do the fish a favour and let them live in a spacious and comfortable home. ....Imagine your whole family living in a toilet? How would you feel when either of your family members pass motion? Get the idea?

[eric_kclee]

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On 8/20/2003 10:09:17 PM

Do the fish a favour and let them live in a spacious and comfortable home. ....Imagine your whole family living in a toilet? How would you feel when either of your family members pass motion? Get the idea?
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Just a friendly exchange....
PeterGwee, does this look over-crowded to you?

big picture

Believe me, in the tank got
19 cardinal tetra, 6 golden tetra, 3 yamato, 2 cories, 4 budibudi...total 34pieces.
Some hiding...some sleeping...

To work out the mathematics,
1tetra = 1litre.
It is like 1 human to one condo. Somemore I follow international rule [], taiwanese aquarium guide.

Imagine, how many tetra can we squeeze into a 1litre bottle. Can we squeeze that many people in our toilet? no way. So you analogy is way too extreme. 1 tetra to 1 litre is one person living in a condo.

Moreover they pee and sh_t and eat in the same water. As long as the fishes are not stressed, nothing is made better by offering a bigger space.

Just my opinion. Don't HanTum me.
[] []

[chua]

If you read amano's book 1, it is true that he put a lot of fishes in his tank. But if you read carefully, he changes around 50% of his tank water weekly. This is necessary to crate for his high bioload. If you want to have high bioload, then you need to change more water. But not too much else you have to cycle your tank all over again. I think 50% is the max.

[bluezing]

aiyah...overall...as long as ur fish dun die...can oredi lah.tio bo?if fish starts to die 1 by 1...its either way too crowded...or they kana neon tetra disease.

[PeterGwee]

Well, its up to you though.... You will always have algae issues due to occasional ammonia spikes if the plant growth go south for some reason.

[naturetan]

Darkkon, 25 fishes in a 22 gallon tank is not a problem with bioload. Don't worry.

Usually, the problem with high CO2 with only 1bps is not really you're injecting too much. It's cause by your plants not healthy enough to photosynthesize. It's either caused by nutrient deficiency or tank parameter like lighting being too low. This is the usual problem when plants are not doing well.

So work on this to get back the balance. Once they're healthy enough, you'll find that the O2 produced will be more then enough to last even for the night.

bluezing, I would encourage you not to test its limit for fish to die before stop buying. Fish need some space to feel comfortable and healthy. IMO, it's better and easier to run a tank with low bioload, not high. You'll have more work and starving for the fishes if too high.

[nbk3]

my tetras also dun like to go to the surface to get food ,and would like to wait for them to sink, but this only lasted for a few days [] now they readily attack any food , or food-like particles , that might appear on the surface

those tetra bits are fine but many debated on giving a variety of foods like BW maybe ? garlic is also one of the more healthy food additions

[bclee]

I find my tetras taking a while to get acclimatised to my CO2 enriched tank. They will stay close to the surface gasping for 1 or 2 days while the rest of my "lao chiao" fishes is swimming around with no problem. The new fishes will return to normal after some time.

I am not saying that your case is the same as mine. pH/KH test is the best if you have CO2 enriched tanks. That way can be for sure that the CO2 is not causing problems to your fishes.

BC

[geoffrey]

Eric, nice tank.

Are those on the right-back Hottonia?

[eric_kclee]

Thanks, Geo
That is TONINA (regular Tai4 Yang2 Chao3)

Darkkon,
Sometime (once in 6month) thing do get 'off-balance'. Especially when we do thing too extreme in a small tank like trimming too much. When it happens, o2 down, bacteria dead, water cloudy and plant sick, fish die (in sequence). What I did was use a small air pump to assist for 5-6 days, then bacteria revive, water clear, plant happy, o2 up and fish happy. After getting back the balance, keep the air pump.

[Darkkon]

Very thankful for all the replies and advice i have received so far. I have some more questions actually, but here's some latest stats for my tank:

Tank size = 60*30*45 (cm) ~ 22 US gallons
Temp = 28*C
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate ~ 0 mg/l
pH ~ 6.5
kH ~ 3-4
Lights = 72W, 8hrs per day
CO2 = 1bps , ? ppm (no CO2 test kit)
Bioload = 1*SAE, 1*CAE, 16*Cardinal, 3*Neon, ~40*Malayan

And here are some more questions:

1. From the day i put my 20 Cardinal Tetras in, 4 already died, at rate of 2 per day. 1 was already dead within an hour in the tank (didn't survive the trip?), another the next morning (had bad case of tailrot already before). Tonight i headcount got 2 more missing (very sure), never found the body or skeleton. I can attribute the first 2 deaths to shock and already present tailrot, but today's 2 deaths mean the tank is overloaded is it?

2. My tank is MUCH MUCH more planted than eric's. So theoratically if the plants are healthy i should be able to keep more fishes? How exactly can i tell whether they are healthy, ie, photosynthesizing properly? They bubble and grow and all that, so what is the crucial factor?

3. What the heck is the point of having a cooling fan when even while it is on the temp can hit 28-29*C? I understand it brings down the temp to room temp so on hot days it serves no purpose? I only on it when my lights are on. Do you guys on it 24-hour?

Many thanks in advance [:]

[naturetan]

Firstly, you need to be specific about your KH. Is it 3 or 4? It makes a difference about your CO2 concentration. But even with that concentration, I doubt it can harm the fishes.

How old is your tank? New tank usually have problem with NH3/NO2 level.

You should start dosing N, P & K to make sure it doesn't run low. It will nurse your plants back to health quickly for more food energy conversion.

Here's my answer:
1) A healthy plant will give you a healthy fish. I'm sure it's not overloading, but either poisoning due to foreign substance, or unhealthy plants. Unless the fishes you bought are unhealthy in the first place? Plants can absorb toxicity in your water chemistry to some level, if you don't restrict its uptake. Also, make sure your filter rate is right and well-maintained.

2) Bubbling does not mean it's healthy. One of the good indication for me is - does your tank has algae problem? If not, the next thing is judged based on sign of deficiency. Does the growth for old/new leaves look strong? Fast growing stem plants show deficiency faster. However, I usually take about few weeks to a month as a guide for such sign to show up, before I can safely conclude its doing well. It's definitely not a few days job as others would like to judge.

3) Fan helps to cool down your water temperature 1-2 degree of your ambient temperature. Besides, if you have CO2 problem, it will also help to keep your fish from CO2 poisoning.

I've seen a tank suffering about the same problem as you. Fishes are unhealthy and dying everyday. However, he's algae problem due to nutrients deficiency. This make the water conditions quite bad for fishes, and they gasp for air. It's a 4 feet tank and only pump 1 bubble in about 3 sec! So little dosage and yet lack of O2! However, not long, many fishes died as its too late for me to salvage the situation, despite pumping O2.

What I'm trying to say is that work your plants back to health. Give them the food they need quickly, and your fish will be healthy soon. I'm assuming other factors like filter is OK and there's no other foreign toxic additives you put. Wish your fish well soon.