Why Must the Killifish Be Priced Expensive?

[daguldfisher]

Why must everybody price these fish so expensive? They say this will keep the hobby alive. What do you guys think about it?

[Emokidz]

Firstly, it's more of a supply/demand issue that drives the price. Supply is low as farms tend to focus on more mainstream kind of livestock. Most of the time, people with no idea on how to keep these fish buy them for their colours and they end up dying. It's true that a higher pricing could deter potential buyers who don't really do their research. The ones who do (often people who breed these fish) are willing to pay for them. The same is true for wild betta.

[daguldfisher]

But aren't they easily bred? From what I can understand is that they spawn on the average 15 eggs per week. And with proper conditioning, a good percentage can be matured and hatched. But from what I can see is that even eggs are getting very high price tags. From what I have read and what I have experienced (although I have only tried a few nothos), they have very low mortality rate if you hatch them from eggs yourself. I hope one day we can help the price to go down so as to invite more hobbyists into killies.

[richardkwan]

Hi Andy,

I share the same sentiment as you that one day we can make killies more avoidable and readily available!

Rgds,
Richard

[Emokidz]

But aren't they easily bred? From what I can understand is that they spawn on the average 15 eggs per week. And with proper conditioning, a good percentage can be matured and hatched. But from what I can see is that even eggs are getting very high price tags. From what I have read and what I have experienced (although I have only tried a few nothos), they have very low mortality rate if you hatch them from eggs yourself. I hope one day we can help the price to go down so as to invite more hobbyists into killies.

Yes, they can yield high numbers if great care is taken in raising, conditioning and breeding them. But how many hobbyists are willing to do that? Just a handfull. Most people don't bother with all the trouble and just demand the adults because their colours are fully developed. And hobbyists who truly care (most of the time on a budget too), are victims of this. Also, LFSs don't really stock females as they arent as colourful as their male counterparts and demand for them is low. They also don't make it a point to sell them as a pair, which would leave all the males sold out and females left behind. If they do, there is a risk that they may not be the same species too.

[daguldfisher]

Some people like to keep fish just for display. But isn't most of us hobbyists keeping to rear them. That is why I am stopping my tetra project. Having a hard time breeding them. Almost 3 years I've kept them and got not a single fry. Aren't the shops not selling the females so they keep the business to thmselves? And arent the hobbyists avoiding them coz of the price to acquire them especially females?

[RonWill]

Why must everybody price these fish so expensive? They say this will keep the hobby alive. What do you guys think about it?

If anyone had the opportunity of 'importing' live fishes and/or eggs at a hobbyist level, for specimens to be shipped in a specified manner, and painfully forking out greenbacks and Euros for EMS services (Express Shipping) from the USA, UK and European countries, you would understand why no sane and serious killie-keeper would want to sell their fishes at knock off prices.

Add to that, the scarcity of locally available list of killifishes, maintaining at least 4 dedicated tanks per species population (plus a load of hatching and grow-out containers) and the irony of local mentality of 'I want it cheap'... well... it's no surprise that even the most hardcore hobbyist will burn out.

As for prolific breeding killies, I *might* agree if that's in reference to annual species but these killies will pass it's prime in about 6 months. If one is able to keep it alive for 9 months, these haggard specimens is an embarrasment should an ill-informed person were to ask, "how come this fish look like that??!!"

Non-annual killies fair much better in cool-weathered countries but by local context, are pathetic in egg production and a far cry from that weekly 15 eggs mentioned earlier. The peak spawning period is during the monsoon season but that happens only annually, doesn't it? So... how can eggs be cheap then, even if it was from a local breeder?

I hope one day we can help the price to go down so as to invite more hobbyists into killies

I recall someone initiating specie-conservation programs, selling eggs and even small groups of fry, with the assurance that if they can't find a pair in what they raise to young adults, the seller will provide a specimen of appropriate opposite sex without charge (on condition of frequent updates as to how the fry are progressing)... all that for a meager S$6...

Imagine the sellers disappointment when there were no takers... not one. It was then he realized that he was there at the wrong time, at the wrong place, preaching to the wrong crowd. He felt like a burnt-out idiot and that idiot was me.

Regardless of my apparent negative response and as hard as I try to deny a passion, I still have killies in my blood. I may not want to work as hard as before but rest assured that I'll still chip in my two cents to help out whenever hectic work schedule allows. Will I make a come back? I might... and I might not. Nobody can foresee what lies ahead anyway.

Invite more newcomers to killie-keeping? Heh... I'll have to leave that to the next generation to try harder... my old bones can't keep up with water changes, price haggling and 'aeroplane' buyers.

[an1l]

Killies to me are like growing plants. I am also a fan of carnivorous plants of which I have a small collection, and I think both, however different they may seem, are similar in that they require patience. How much is patience + effort + time spent worth to you ? To me it's very expensive; especially the "time" part.
It takes a lot of time to grow a fish from a 1mm egg; a lot of time and a lot of effort...All the water changes, the BBS bottle running non-stop plus the other live food cultures and of course, the upkeep of those food cultures...

I take a look at my r. xiphidius fry; almost 3 months old and finally looking like real fish, showing some colour...If I were to sell a few (which I don't think I ever will), would I let them go for a mere 10 bucks each ? No sir, thank you very much. All those hours I've spent on them, all the stress, the effort to cure them if one happened to get some internal parasites...Just to view them shining for a second or two in the morning sun.
Killies are an obsession, I think it's really quite different than keeping cichlids or guppies. I don't think the prices are high at all. Honestly, often I think they go for pretty cheap!

[Emokidz]

Definitely agree with Ronnie and an1l, most hobbyists here wait low prices. They hope others import the species, breed them and sell them at a cheaper rate. If everyone thought that way, we'll all be back at square one. Local LFSs price killies at below a red note. Then cost of ordering the same species online and have them shipped over would well be over 6-8 times that price. Andy, if you're really interested in killies, try ordering from aquabid. It might be costly, but you'll finally be able to get other aphyosemion species other than the common orange (and chocolate, of which I've never seen a chocolate female.. EVER) australes seen at local LFSs.

Otherwise, it could be a really long time before you'll see or hear about someone breeding that same species in sunny singapore successfully - or even willing to sell them.

[RonWill]

Andy (and those interested), I searched for an old thread to give you a feel of the kind of excitement (and anxiety) that accompanied the arrival of our egg orders in Nov 2003. All those present, collecting our respective lot of eggs, were like new daddies waiting outside the maternity ward... awkward but memorable at the same time.

Have a laugh, if you will. It was worth the experience and I'm very glad to have penned the episode.

[richardkwan]

Hi Ronnie,

I could sensed your anguish, frustration and disappointment as you recalled your past experience of promoting killifishes and I applaud your great efforts.

You mention wrong time, wrong place and wrong crowd at that point in time. Ipad is the in-thing today but who would want them 10 years ago? Different season calls for different things. Who knows killifishes may be the next in-thing?

If you were to promote killifishes again, what would you do differently? This may be the key to boosting our killifish scene here.

Just my 2-cents thoughts.

Rgds,
Richard

[Emokidz]

Well, I don't think we should depend on others to promote the hobby. If people are interested, they can order the fish through easily accessible sources like aquabid and start up. The fact that many aren't willing to deal with all the "inconvenience" and "hassle" that comes with keeping killies shows that the community probably isn't ready. Personally, I doubt that it's really a cost factor. For example, the costs of obtaining and keeping CRS are so much more, yet the CRS scene is so vibrant here. My advice though, if you're really interested, you can always start a mass order in the forum and see how it proceeds from there.

[daguldfisher]

I guess I have to deal with the price that I have to pay for the hobby, and take it from the shifus. But just a note, of all my hobbues I never really thought of making money out of them. I had my 30+ species of orchids that I acquired by paying quite expensive price. My friends and neighbors would visit me time to time and ask for cuttings and never charged a single cent to them. I reared and bred bettas also, I had good stocks that I passed to my neighbors for free also and gave away all of them for free when I quit bettas due to cleaning requirements of around 10+ tanks. I never made a single cent out of my hobbies before as I take them as pure hobby. I might sell the equipments but rarely sell my stocks.

[RonWill]

My advice though, if you're really interested, you can always start a mass order in the forum and see how it proceeds from there.

Bernard,
It is against forum rules to initiate mass/group order without approval from the admins. Do your homework regarding source, species and prices, then drop the admins a line and wait for their ok to start a thread in the appropriate sub-forum. Personally, I don't foresee any problems if it's done in the interest of sharing.

Andy,
I was also into orchids briefly, mostly Dendrobium, mini Phalaenopsis, Kingidium and some Bulbophyllum (all species, no hybrids). Unfortunately, I got impatient after a while, waiting for blooms and just watering leaves for the rest of the year. Decided to stick with Platycerium instead, since I have no expectations of them ever flowering.

Don't get me wrong. I was never a money-faced hobbyist and fully understand if funds from sale of fish, plantlets and equipment is plowed back into the hobby (which is an ideal situation). Come to think of it, I've almost always never 'earned' more than what went into any hobby anyway.

That said, I'm still look forward to hearing what the new guy bought on shopping sprees!

[RonWill]

I could sensed your anguish, frustration and disappointment as you recalled your past experience of promoting killifishes

Richard, I have no issue with anger. Compared to the truck-loads of goodwill exchanged and the new friends I made locally and else where, in person and in cyberspace, my time with killifishes was well worth it.

Frustration is more likely when I lose a batch of fry due to overlooked hydra infestation or my oversight in proper husbandry and when developing eggs become fungus balls for no apparent reasons. I get irritated too, when well-conditioned fishes don't breed regardless of how I trigger them.

Disappointment? Sure!! When I don't get to see them mate ... and... when I don't receive the egg count that I paid for ... and... when I'm not updated on status from recipients of my killies, that goes towards local conservation. Then again, I'm not that anal anymore.

If you were to promote killifishes again, what would you do differently? This may be the key to boosting our killifish scene here

Honestly, I have no idea. Embarking on killie-keeping was a personal endeavour and it was later that Kwek Leong found me on AKA mailing list. Both of us shared the same interest and basically, that was how Killies.com was formed.

Life has taken many drastic turns and those close to me will know the pits I've fallen in and out of but as I've mentioned somewhere, nobody knows what happens tomorrow.

Strange as it may sound, a little parrot told me that we *might* have Fundulopanchax sjoestedi (SJO) and Nothobranchius furzeri 2010* hitting our shores...

* 2010 - year collected.

[Nicky]

I can see Ronnie's killi juice ignited and flowing in this thread. Hope the flame can last longer in the local community this time. Keep it going mate, one day I may join you.

[RonWill]

I can see Ronnie's killi juice ignited and flowing in this thread...

Stop gazing into my little crystal ball. You have no idea what troubles 'good intentions' are getting me into...

[daguldfisher]

Haha! Seems like a lot of people here share a lot of my hobbies. Orchids, bikes, fish, birds. I wonder if anybody here into electronics kits also. My orchid collection before I moved was vanda, bulbo, dendro, aerides, phals, oncidiums, catts, paphs, cymbidiums. That is just what I can remember now. My roofdeck almost always got blooms as I have a lot. So I am not usually frustrated. But had to give them all away to friends and relatives to find my future. Now restarting all my hobbies. Haha! I am about there. But cannot have that much in my collection. I am gonna need a big balcony or a big place for those.

[richardkwan]

Hi Ronnie,

Thanks for replying and sharing your experience. It must have been very tough.

Since we are on this topic of promoting the killifish hobby, thought I share this. I'm currently keeping a CRS tank in my office. For a while, my colleagues just looked. After a few months, 1 of them approached me and expressed interest in starting a CRS tank. Since she's a beginner, I set up the tank for her and gave her some of my CRS. She has since been staring at them everyday! That was like a few months ago. Recently, 3 other colleagues approached me, intrigued by the baby CRS that were born. 1 colleague I gave a baby for him to try 2 days ago. 1 colleague I told him to cycle his tank for another week. 1 colleague I say 'no' as he doesn't listen and just want to keep CRS in his own way!

My point for the story is that people need to know and then see for themselves. Prior to this, none of my colleague know what is dwarf shrimp, let alone CRS. They all associate shrimps with those that we eat! Now that I am thinking of changing my office CRS tank to a killifish tank, I intend to give away all my CRS to my colleagues or bring them home (I have a tank of CRS at home for my wife - she just loves them!). I shared my intention with my colleagues and to my surprise, none of them know what is killifish! Some of them had even kept fishes in the past! I suspect this ignorance about killifish is a common thing among most people in the street.

A couple of things will have to be thought through. 1) How can more people be educated about killifish? 2) How can keeping killifish be made to be more available and more affordable? 3) Would the forming of an official association helps? 4) Would events like killifish shows, killifish bidding or even selling at fleece market (pls don't stone me for this, just a thought) helps?

My wife make this remark this morning that "maybe killifish is a niche kind of thing." But, I really hope not. They are too beautiful not to appear in homes to glitter and to bring joy to more families!

Thanks for reading.

Rgds,
Richard

[lucasjiang]

Although I dont keep killifish, i would like to share my opinion.

I think the point is that in Singapore, most people keep what they fancy at that point in time(which is normally ephemeral), they try out many things but not a lot really go in-depth into keeping a particular pet. So, normally what catches their eye is the neon tetra in the shop or the contrasting white and red colours of the CRS, both of which are wildly popular, but not the killies.

I am not saying killies are ugly, i know most killies are very colourful, but you cant put a lot in a tank and hence it loses out to the more eye-catching neon tetra which glitters from afar as they swim in a big shoal. In the stressful Singapore society, few people have the time to observe the subtle beauty of killies, they do not have the patience to breed the killies and enjoy the sense of fulfilment in doing so, they just want a fish that is eye-catching. Also, since it is quite hard to find female killies in singapore except for the clown killie maybe, it is becomes harder for people to breed them. Hence, there is no continuity in the hobby, and especially for the annuals, i guess once the killies die, people will just buy the next fish that is more colouful or trendy. Furthermore, since killies are priced expensively, wouldnt it be easier to get XXX which is cheaper and more colourful?

I feel this is just becoming a cycle.

No one buys them > Pet shop doent bring them in > Killies have to be bought from overseas > Killies are expensive > Hard to sustain killie interest > Goes back to first part.

I keep wild bettas and feel that the wild betta scene in Singapore is somewhat the same. Male wild bettas are beautiful, but how many can you keep in one tank? You cant possible cramp 20 male betta channoides into a 2 feet tank. Also, female wild bettas are also quite dull in colour. Hence, they do not catch people's attention.

In my opinion, to ignite killie interest, maybe people who keep killies can put the killies in a nice planted tank (personally i prefer fish to be put in a tank that is designed like their biotope, but since i dont know the biotope of killies i cant comment much) instead of the typical killie tank with a lot of peat which will hide the killie's beauty, and post pics on the forum. This way, it will stand out from the green plants and both will complement each other, hence allowing the killies beauty to be displayed. Then, people will pay attention to killies. When this happens, they will naturally be more concerned on how to keep these beauties alive and will do research.

Once interest is ignited, then the next part is sustainability. Normally after keeping, the next stage is breeding. At this point there comes a problem of the unavailability of female killies in local LFSs. Maybe hardcore killie fanatics can organise mass orders at this point to help people acquire females to breed the killies.

Just my 2 cents worth, thanks for reading.