Project Quiet River Shrimp Rack

[huizhong]

very solid tanks and design. but i would agree with Ronwill that u need alo of soil from the partition height.
from what i understand is that u are making a overflowing method from 1 partition to the other? i feel this method will not partition the shrimps. they will swim over eventually to the last partition in each tank. shrimps can even climb up out of water for a short moment. i see in youtube before. haha. so i think u need to do some diy on the overflow design such as putting wire meshes.

[BFG]

very solid tanks and design. but i would agree with Ronwill that u need alo of soil from the partition height.
from what i understand is that u are making a overflowing method from 1 partition to the other? i feel this method will not partition the shrimps. they will swim over eventually to the last partition in each tank. shrimps can even climb up out of water for a short moment. i see in youtube before. haha. so i think u need to do some diy on the overflow design such as putting wire meshes.

Watch your sms language usage.

[Navanod]

So many responses! Let me firstly apologize for not posting more after the sneak peek. I can only work on the project this weekend and so have no pictures to show & pictures speaks a thousand words rather than me spamming a wall of text. However, I really appreciate the advice and pointers coming in!

Er, why do you need 3 set of pvc pipes per tank? To complete your setup, get an auto top off system and a pail to store ro/di water for automatic water top up.

The 3 pipes design is mainly for flood proofing (redundancy) and to silent the sound of water gurgling as it flows down the pipes. Kinda like a Durso pipe design, but with an extra pipe.
The design came from marine tanks, where chokes can cause a major flood in the room, and when noise kinda spoils the calm and peace of the tank. This is a video of the pipes in action. Notice the silence once the 2nd (low flow pipe) gets pushed underwater.


Its not for zigzaging river currents! Hahaha!

River current is possible with 3 incoming stream of water but how to zigzag when the bulkheads are inside a single-end partition and flowing from it??? Best one can achieve is even flow only to the 1st shrimp partition.

I'm with BFG using one main out-pipe but if you look closely (left end of middle tier tank), Navanod's design has 1 PVC in-take elbow facing up and 2 facing down ... *very puzzled*

Both halves of all usable partitions are based on under-flow, passing through a narrow partition, before over flowing to the end-partition and down to next tank, not directly to sump!! IMHO, that essentially means most bio-loading from top tank is added onto 2nd tier... hmm...

Navanod, since your inflow is based on overflow from 1st glass partition, I suggest you check & double check the floor's leveling because that will influence how much water flows into each half of each tier. Confused? I am too

2. Have good directional water flow, similar to how a river would cascade & flow.
Hate to pop your bubble but even-flow, not directional, is only for 1st shrimp partition. A height difference (from inflow partition to tank's water level) will not prevent shrimps from climbing over.

3. Have good surface agitation and skimming to promote oxygenation.
Under-flowing partitions are never known to have surface agitation unless you have a rainbar running across all shrimp partitions ...and skimming is possible only with overflow, not underflow.

5. Use minimal soil in the tank (use the sump instead for pH control).
Judging from the diagram & image, you will need a generous amount of soil to close the partition's bottom gap, which doesn't prevent shrimplets from crawling through.

6. Be as fail safe as possible, especially against flooding.
That depends on how quickly the underflow gap gets clogged up (then you'll have free overflow over shrimp partitions) and how you control water level in the sump.

7. Have separate dedicated canister filters for both tiers. Over-filteration and a large water volume is the key.
Which means 2 canister filters, plus a big-butt return pump, which takes another toll on the chiller...

D@mn... I'll be waiting for updates!!

That upturned elbow is the safety pipe. In the event of a choke in the main or 2nd pipe, water level in the end partition will rise above this elbow and be drained by this 3rd pipe, an making lotsa noise in the process to alarm me. The 2nd pipe also have an airline that will turn it into a full siphon once water level goes above a certain level, allowing the 2nd pipe to handle more flow. In another words, unless something cracks, or 2 out of 3 pipes gets totally choked by plants, crap or things that falls in by accident, the chances of a flood is slim.
I'm not home most of the time and this is really for peace of mind.

You can google Bean Animal's overflow for more info as this design was by him.
Mine is slightly modified but the basics are identical.


I'm not so worried about the bioload from top tank being dumped on the bottom tank. The large water volume and additional canisters should be able to deal with it.

Very good point about the floor leveling! I totally didn't consider that and how it would cause all the flow to move to one side of the partition! Thanks! I'll check it!

There will be meshes of various sized holes placed above and below all the partitions to ensure the shrimps stay where they are but its a juggling act of flowrate vs rate of choking. The aim is to have mainly underflow (50mm gap) compensated by some overflow (30mm gap) over each partition. This should skim any surface scum into the overflow?
Even flow may be impossible but I've included a mixing chamber before the overflow sump to try and keep water levels constant. Any thoughts on that?


The big butt return pump is an Eheim compact+ 5000. I have an Eheim 2078 & 2228 on standby but I have not decided on the direction to run them. If the flow rate of the big butt is very high, I may use the canisters to "bypass" the partitions (intake from inflow and output directly into overflow at the end) and reduce the flow through the shrimp partitions. Otherwise, I'll run it in reversed from the above, adding the canister's flowrate to the pump's...probably will see a tidal wave?
Chiller will be an Arctica DBE-200 1/4hp. Should be enough to run the setup at 24-25 degrees.

You bros are starting to worry me with all these talks of ninja shrimps able to scale glass partitions against the flow of a waterfall overflow!!

[silane]

River current is possible with 3 incoming stream of water but how to zigzag when the bulkheads are inside a single-end partition and flowing from it??? Best one can achieve is even flow only to the 1st shrimp partition.

River current is not a good thing, too much of the current, causes shrimps to have fading color due to the stress they have to cope with. When I visit mountains for shrimps, I wont go at wet season when the creek flow is too high, shrimps are weak, shrimps are hidding and color are bad.

Navanod, what the species of shrimps are you keeping? This will be an interesting thread to watch and see how the tank being setup.

[Navanod]

River current is not a good thing, too much of the current, causes shrimps to have fading color due to the stress they have to cope with. When I visit mountains for shrimps, I wont go at wet season when the creek flow is too high, shrimps are weak, shrimps are hidding and color are bad.

Navanod, what the species of shrimps are you keeping? This will be an interesting thread to watch and see how the tank being setup.

Thank you for the reminder, I'll keep that in mind. I have plans to place some form of rocks to buffer any strong currents or at least provide shelters within the partitions. I picked the Eheim compact + 5000 pump partly also because the flowrate can be reduced as much as 1/2 if required.
How can I estimate if the flow is too strong from your experience?

I plan to continue keeping CRS and Fire reds for now.

[BFG]

The choke usually caused by turbo snail climbing over the overflow into the pipes in a marine tank. These snail are quite large compared to those available in the freshwater species. The 3rd pipe is your emergency pipe and it's main function is to let you know your primary flow pipe is blocked.

Why the need to have a return pump when you could utilise the canister filter?

[Navanod]

The choke usually caused by turbo snail climbing over the overflow into the pipes in a marine tank. These snail are quite large compared to those available in the freshwater species. The 3rd pipe is your emergency pipe and it's main function is to let you know your primary flow pipe is blocked.

Why the need to have a return pump when you could utilise the canister filter?

Haha yes, I've read of the horror stories of snails causing a flood for marine tanks although I didn't know they were called turbo snails! I know there's nothing big enough to do the same in my case, I thought it was no harm doing the full design since I'm already gonna drill holes. May have to use nerites to clean the glass in the future?

I'm not sure the canister pumps effectively against gravity from the sump to the top tank? The sump will be at floor level, meaning that the canisters will also be at the same level with it. Even in my current 2ft setup, with the 2078 pushing water through the chiller, flow is not strong enough to reach the other end of the tank. Also, Pro3e goes kind of crazy when used with a chiller...

A dedicated return pump would make servicing the chiller and the canisters much easier for me as well. Right now, I have to shut everything off to service either pieces of equipment. Are you concerned with the heat load of the pump? That pump uses 86w, quite a fair bit yes...

[RonWill]

River current is not a good thing, too much of the current, causes shrimps to have fading color due to the stress they have to cope with

Silane, I was responding to Xconnect that Navanod's design does not cater to river-like current nor do I advocate it since I've never been to any natural shrimp biotope.

Interesting point though, regarding current and stress. Must admit I presumed that shrimps might in fact gather near streamy areas where more food might come to pass and land.

[BFG]

Haha yes, I've read of the horror stories of snails causing a flood for marine tanks although I didn't know they were called turbo snails! I know there's nothing big enough to do the same in my case, I thought it was no harm doing the full design since I'm already gonna drill holes. May have to use nerites to clean the glass in the future?

I'm not sure the canister pumps effectively against gravity from the sump to the top tank? The sump will be at floor level, meaning that the canisters will also be at the same level with it. Even in my current 2ft setup, with the 2078 pushing water through the chiller, flow is not strong enough to reach the other end of the tank. Also, Pro3e goes kind of crazy when used with a chiller...

A dedicated return pump would make servicing the chiller and the canisters much easier for me as well. Right now, I have to shut everything off to service either pieces of equipment. Are you concerned with the heat load of the pump? That pump uses 86w, quite a fair bit yes...

Yep, am concern on the heat load the pump produce. Might be negligible I hope but a secondary concern is with the high flowrate, 5000lt/hr, it might be too fast for the chiller for it to operate efficiently. What hp chiller will you purchase and whether will you modify it with an external temperature probe? Oh, another tip. Use a gate valve instead of a ball valve to control the water flow on your secondary flow pipe. Ball valve are a pita to control water flow while a gate valve is a good choice.

[Navanod]

Yep, am concern on the heat load the pump produce. Might be negligible I hope but a secondary concern is with the high flowrate, 5000lt/hr, it might be too fast for the chiller for it to operate efficiently. What hp chiller will you purchase and whether will you modify it with an external temperature probe? Oh, another tip. Use a gate valve instead of a ball valve to control the water flow on your secondary flow pipe. Ball valve are a pita to control water flow while a gate valve is a good choice.

Thanks for the advice bro
From my experience, chillers need a minimal flowrate to operate properly (to avoid rapid kick-in kick-out cycles), which can be mitigated by using an external probe. I'm not aware of an upper limit as yet. In the event that 5000 is too much, the pump can be slowed to 2500l/hr, would that be ok?
Chiller will be an Arctica DBE-200 1/4hp and although I do have external temperature controllers, I've tested and am satisfied that the Arctica's internal sensors are almost as good as an external probe's, unlike horrible Resun's.

I did read up on valves and there were complains that ball valves are a pita for this design yes. The original user used true union ball valves, which are abit too costly for me. The hardware shop didn't have gate valves that can fit my PVC size so I decided to try the ball valves instead. Perhaps I should ask the shop to order in 2 gate valves for me instead as per your suggestion. I'll go ask them

The valves are for the primary pipes, not for the secondary flow pipes. The purpose of the valve is to restrict flow on the primary pipe to the point where it cannot handle the entire flowrate from the return pump. This ensures that any slight variations will not introduce air into the pipe again, which will produce noise. The secondary pipe will then handle the small amount of excess flow, which should be so little that it would not be able to cause gurgling noises.

[BFG]

Well done! It looks like you are on top of things. Good luck! Keep the pics coming.

[Navanod]

It appears to be very difficult to acquire PVC gate valves...any bros with info on any shops? I know a big shop at Silat that seemed to be a plumbing specialty shop, but have to delay till Monday before I can check

[Yany]

wow... amazed at the amount of work and design that comes with this. Will be watching....

[dnsfpl]

try calling Thomas 68968951
shop is located at Toh Guan East
not sure if they operate over the weekend

cheers

[Navanod]

try calling Thomas 68968951
shop is located at Toh Guan East
not sure if they operate over the weekend

cheers

Thanks for the contacts bro. Thomas is opened on saturdays but unfortunately, his gate valves are all brass, similar to my regular hardware shop. Those are way too heavy and require added of additional threaded fittings which would totally stress the glass.

There are definitely PVC gate valves according to google...

[eviltrain]

Rmember to go all plastic. Any metal parts pose a threat to shrimps.

[RonWill]

There are definitely PVC gate valves according to google...

Wah... I so sua ku... didn't realize that gate valves are available in PVC. Who would have thought, when what is mostly available are made from brass!! Here's something I found, albeit not local, of a PVC gate valve

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/ite...4447&catid=584

There's a plumbing specialty shop along Balestier Road (near Chan Huat Lightings) that I used to patronize. Perhaps you might want to try there... then have makan along that stretch of eateries.

[Navanod]

Rmember to go all plastic. Any metal parts pose a threat to shrimps.

I was almost tempted to just go with the brass since I figured all our PUB pipes are brass anyway. But yea, better be safe than sorry...not fun to lose CRS...

Wah... I so sua ku... didn't realize that gate valves are available in PVC. Who would have thought, when what is mostly available are made from brass!! Here's something I found, albeit not local, of a PVC gate valve

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/ite...4447&catid=584

There's a plumbing specialty shop along Balestier Road (near Chan Huat Lightings) that I used to patronize. Perhaps you might want to try there... then have makan along that stretch of eateries.

Ouch, thats an ugly valve! Hahaha!
I prefer greyish PVC?

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...0&child=FT4055

Dang, I'm going to call up afew vendors who worked on projects for me before to check. Sounds like PVC gate valves are some kinda rarity in S'pore

[eviltrain]

Actually im dont believe in our tap water anymore. I have been water change with distilled water for the past 2-3 months liao. Hehehe.

[RonWill]

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...0&child=FT4055

OUCH!! That's USD35 sans shipping... could buy lots of ball valves!!! Furthermore, please note that the inner diameter of these accessories may not be common standard to local suppliers.

Actually im dont believe in our tap water anymore...

erm... then wouldn't you be better off reconstituting RO'ed water instead? Ought to be cheaper in the long run.