Pedigree CRS lineage and the info we should have when buying and selling

[Navanod]

While we're working on a grading system for PRL/CRS colors, I feel that we should also address the issue of lineages, proper pedigree breeding methods and the info that should accompany a pedigree shrimp.

Of course, such info are again subjected to one's integrity but proper record keeping are a good way to back a line up.

I used to deal with many genetically engineered mice strains as well as inbred strains that are used for research. Also did some line breeding to extend a few strains locally. So hopefully I know what I'm talking about
What I may propose may be very drastic and not feasible for the hobbyists but its a guideline to look at.

Basically, when breeding shrimps, we should keep track of:

Parental generation F0:
Who we bought from. This previous breeder, lets say example Silane, will form the baseline. Ideally, we should also know the earlier breeder that Silane got his parental gen from, but ultimately Silane is responsible for the quality and genes of the parental gen that we bought. Tracking earlier breeders is good for gene pool tracking.

Each F0 pair forms 1 "line". So a breeder would have many concurrent "lines" based on how many breeder pairs one started with.

The F (stands for Filial) generations:
F1, F2, F3 and so forth. This can tell people how many gens had been bred by the individual breeder.

If doing back-crosses, eg. mating F1 & F2, some would consider the offsprings F3 but ideally, a "BCF1" can be added to indicate that backcrossing was done.
This can get confusing really quickly, so record keeping is important for really serious breeders.

This means that, the folks who simply drops their breeders into a big tank, and let them go at it randomly until the tank's full of multi-generation shrimps mating randomly, while estimating how many generations it had been, are not considered pedigree breeding.
Its mixed inbreeding. One can still get very nice results with extensive culling, so I'm not sure how such forms of breeding can be considered with relations to lineages.

Obviously, if any of the lines hits a golden shrimp or a bad mutation like balloon head, that line must terminate and not be sold. Of course, any offsprings already sold there's not much we can do.

I'm not going to go into what to do when crossing different lines within our own colonies, or when new shrimps are brought in to mate with existing lines, that is another long story

So what info should be provided when selling a pedigree shrimp?
At the very very least, the immediate breeder's name, the F0 source and the F gen the shrimps on sale came from. We can quote any reputable and famous ANCESTORS or the source of the F0 source but the value of this ancestry is only as good as the immediate breeder's skills and luck in trying to maintain or improve the line.
Basically, once the shrimps are in a breeder's hands, it becomes that breeder's OWN LINE.

Eg. Navanod's line, F0 from Cheetf's line, F5 offsprings. Tamagochi lineage.
(By quoting F5, it is understood that 5 gens had passed without golden shrimps being produced.)

Of course, this also means that any erm ... how should I put it nicely ... entrepreneurial breeders who acts as unofficial importers and sellers without doing any breeding themselves, would find it difficult to operate.
These are issues I do not want to address here.

On the other side of the coin, digging up any juicy details of people claiming to have golden shrimps from shrimps of a certain ancestry means nothing unless those shrimps came direct from the ancestral line.

If the ancestral line's breeder admits to having golden shrimp offsprings from all his lines, then that lineage can be considered tainted unless the breeder demonstrates that actions had been taken to "clean" the line up, such as doing monohybrid crossing (eg. Silane's method of crossing suspected shrimps with golden shrimps) to eliminate the golden gene from the gene pool.

With all that being said, it all boils down to a breeder's integrity and honesty as only the breeder knows what's going on in his own colony.
I suggest that we place less importance on brand names and blind lineage following and focus on actual color qualities instead. All the lineage in the world would mean nothing if the shrimp looked like crap.
So, sellers should have to be prepared to invest in a good camera too

[soonhong]

Bro Navanod...A great thread from you and also those posts from you recently about the research and effort made ......great job and happy chinese new year to all.

[eviltrain]

I love your wall of text, great for people who wants to starts getting different lineage.

good job!

[cheetf]

Great effort man! Makes good sense. I think it is a step in the right direction as it will give people a clearer picture of what is being bought and sold. Also it would be a good challenge for people to keep their 'collection' in good order.
'

[zphone]

Great effort to create this thread and nice to help newbie especially those want to try on Pure Red Lines.

[felix_fx2]

Can someone post picture sample?
Just a suggestion see example below.
PRL Crs
Golden genes appearing in offspring.

At point of post I have
Not finish reading TS 1st post, mighty good and mention inbreeding also.

I recall too much inbreeding will cause gene pool to weaken. Saw it on tv show about elephants.
From the shrimp aspect, is this also happening with prl in general.

[reiner09]

Wow,nice long wall of text from bro Nav.. Very insightful opinions and suggestions..shows that alot of thoughts is being put through before this amount of text is being typed out..

[bai]

This is a good thread to discuss further.

But it will really depend on the seller whether to review the main source of F0 or not when selling Pedigree Lineage.

[hyun007]

Very good thread.
I love it.

By the way, can I buy your Tamagochi lineage please......??????
It is definitely the cutest name for a lineage name.

[Navanod]

Very good thread.
I love it.

By the way, can I buy your Tamagochi lineage please......??????
It is definitely the cutest name for a lineage name.

I think that's what I'll call my line if I ever managed to get one going! Hahaha!

[Navanod]

Thanks for all the encouragements and putting up with my walls of texts.
Any suggestions to how we can further this discussion?

It would be very hard to really do a very controlled pedigree breeding as per my examples as the breeder will need alot of tanks and even more time.
How can we classify shrimps from mixed breeding tanks? Or is this entire exercise too tedious and we should just focus on colors?

[cheetf]

Tamagochi line is good for kids.

[eviltrain]

From what i know, part one of maintaining the line will be as follow.

Those who really interested may have to get a pair of top grades F0 housed in tank A.

After F1a is born, F0 is moved to tank B leaving the F1a in tank A

Then after F1b is born, F0 is move to tank C leaving F1b in tank B

( and will keep on repeating until F0 pass away )

Im not too sure about part 2 onwards liao. Hehe.

Correct me if im wrong.

Send from my GT-P1000 (Overcome 7 Series v4.0.0)

[alvinchan80]

Time for more tanks!!! Hahaha...

Thanks bro nav for this insight....

[silane]

From what i know, part one of maintaining the line will be as follow.

Those who really interested may have to get a pair of top grades F0 housed in tank A.

After F1a is born, F0 is moved to tank B leaving the F1a in tank A

Then after F1b is born, F0 is move to tank C leaving F1b in tank B

( and will keep on repeating until F0 pass away )

Im not too sure about part 2 onwards liao. Hehe.

Correct me if im wrong.

Send from my GT-P1000 (Overcome 7 Series v4.0.0)

Not sure how practical is that, but I dont see the advantage of moving here and there for shrimps. Moreover, for shrimps, the more you move, the more they will die.

[reiner09]

Not sure how practical is that, but I dont see the advantage of moving here and there for shrimps. Moreover, for shrimps, the more you move, the more they will die.

Hmm..i agree..i suggest that a partition within the same tank is probably more practical and safer..

[silane]

Thanks for all the encouragements and putting up with my walls of texts.
Any suggestions to how we can further this discussion?

It would be very hard to really do a very controlled pedigree breeding as per my examples as the breeder will need alot of tanks and even more time.
How can we classify shrimps from mixed breeding tanks? Or is this entire exercise too tedious and we should just focus on colors?

A breeder practise to keep 20 pieces of Line A in 1 tank, and another breeder keep 10 pieces of Line A and 10 pieces of Line B in the same tank. Then the latter is no control and the offsprings cannot be called either Line A or Line B or whichever line can fetch more money.

However the first breeder keeping the 20 pieces of the same line in 1 tank, there is no mix up.

Regarding the number of generations, it is hard to segregate clearly, and largely depend on the breeder method of breeding this we may have to base on seller's estimation of how many generations or across a certain time span.

[Xmant]

Bro Navanod, it sounded simpler than if one would want to practise that. Breeder must equip with many tanks. Eventually, it would end up like a big scale farm just to maintain the lineage. It would be impractical unless that one is already had a good lineage in the beginning. Most breeders are self-sponsor, no research fund. So...don't expect too much on that!

[Navanod]

Agreed with Silane. I also did some thinking after looking at Eviltrain bro's question. No breeders would be so hard working to maintain a strict line breeder regime. Most would be doing mixed inbreeding to minimize time spent and maximize productions as there's no incentive up to this point to keep the generations clearly apart or record very precise pairings, unlike the lab breedings I'm used to, where we have a line breeding colony to maintain the quality, and a production colony, using the excess offsprings from the line colony to mass produce stocks for use.

Most breeders probably have their own secret methods. Hahaha!
I guess the most we can expect is the F0 source and the estimated time that the breeder had been breeding the colony, like how bro Zackzhou did.

[Navanod]

Bro Navanod, it sounded simpler than if one would want to practise that. Breeder must equip with many tanks. Eventually, it would end up like a big scale farm just to maintain the lineage. It would be impractical unless that one is already had a good lineage in the beginning. Most breeders are self-sponsor, no research fund. So...don't expect too much on that!

It will take many tanks yes. And as mentioned above, not easy to carry out. Wouldn't need a big farm though. Hahaha. Just many small tanks and alot of work.
I thought those famous Taiwan or Japan breeders all had big farms?

Like I mentioned, my examples are drastic and all taken from research. I was waiting for someone to point out how tedious it would be. Hehe