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Ok, I have 5 berried flowerhead mamas and 1 berried AB mama from the same mixed tank. Let's see if I get any mixed shrimplets.. kekekeke!
[Link] Aura blue cross breeding with Tangerine Tiger
http://shrimpsider.wordpress.com/201...-tiger-shrimp/
Its confirmed! Aura blue can cross with tiger shrimps.
This is the result
This means that it is likely to cross with other related shrimps like CRS, taiwan bees and *gasp* golden shrimp?! I foresee more Tibees...
I'm going to move my aura to another partition!
While I am very grateful for the great work done, I disagree with our Poland friend and his newly coined "Podpigment" theory though.
Once I'm done with the color grading thread, I'll be working on a thread to discuss color formations in shrimps at a cellular level, based on what I had found while hunting for the cause of golden/snow white shrimp. More wall of text.
Ok, I have 5 berried flowerhead mamas and 1 berried AB mama from the same mixed tank. Let's see if I get any mixed shrimplets.. kekekeke!
Podpigment is a ridiculous term. If he used something-phore in the vein of melanophores etc to describe the effect, that would have been much better.
In that article it claims that the Aura Blue and Tangerine Tiger are forms of C. serrata. How true is this? I thought the Aura Blues were undescribed and the Tangerine Tiger was something else?
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Ecalyte bro, can sense your excitement. Haha!
Stormhawk, I'm not sure if it's a translation mistake or if the guy was directly using english and came up with that term. I tried to check his blog but there's not much to read there.
I think he had made a good effort to try and explain why there's translucent blue colorations and strong solid one. I'm not sure how that came about, but most likely it is very tiny melanophores in a not so dense dotted matrix, kinda like the old days of printing, where gray color is created through black dots of varying size and density. Maybe that's what he meant too?
Ok, I found the section in his blog where after translating, is starting to make sense.
"chromatofory", or chromatophores I would guess, is one of the elements that makes up podpigment.
It'll take some studying for sure...even if the names are weird, I'm sure there's much to learn
Tangerine tigers have apparently been classified as C. Serrata for some time. With the aura blues, I seriously doubt that they are undescribed, more of non-release of information. Even a new species would be described by now with all the attention its been getting.
There was much heated debates about whether Auras are C. serrata sometime last year, with the guy who helped the farm to name the shrimp insisting that its a new undescribed specie not related to C. serrata and another accusing him of faking the colors or something.Originally Posted by Draka
Argh, google translation is not doing too well with Polish words. Its like trying to translate Jap to English directly...horrid. For Jap, the trick is translate to chinese first then to english. Any tricks for Polish?
Aura Blue does breed blue, no dye of color this is no argument about this, as many has bred them. When Tangerline Tiger was introduced, even researchers claimed they were dyed, but we breeders know they breed true.
Surprisingly, the most attended species, crs has been misclassified as C. cantonesis so far, until last year, researchers got original wild samples from.wild and noticed that they are not cantonesis.
I think to us, whatever exact species they are is not as important as, how to keep them, to breed them, to refine them, to understand them.
Researchers understand by desect them, by preserve them in formalin. We understand them by breeding them.
silane
Good of you to chip in Silane. Sometime back, I recalled reading that you mentioned the Aura blues may be able to cross with cherries to produce a hybrid that's pale blue with green and red.
Has that rumor been verified or disproved yet? The prospect of Aura blue being able to cross with both Caridina and Neocaridina is quite groundbreaking
Hehe, depends on what type of researcher you meet. Dissection and preservation in formalin are almost exclusively done by the pathologists and some studying anatomy and physiology.
There are many branches of studying animals. Some highly specialized, while others, very broad, such as zoologists like my lousy self.
I do agree that the taxonomists and their naming conventions are not the most important to us right now. Important thing is to understand the reproduction and physiology of the Aura blue now
Well spoken, and I totally agree with you on this point, Silane
With this blog post, I wanted to give the breeder a wider audience to present his results, as well as his theory on colors - which for me also sounds not fully understandable, as he uses a term he invented himself.
Besides, it is important for the shrimp community to know which shrimp might crossbreed in its tanks. The full genetic analysis should be left for the researchers. However, it looks as if classical taxonomy without DNA analysis lacks some important points.
About the cross between cherry, it was a suspect, the tank with cherry and aura blue has few pieces of pale blue with hue of red and green offspring, it wasnt an intensional test of cross breeding. Since he appearance of the offsprings, i suggest they maybe able (seem to be) to cross.
but there are controlled test of they crossed with tiger, then it is unlikely they can cross with cherry
the offsprings i got should be just cherry with some color variation
silane
Hi all,
I don't speak english well, but I will try, sorry about mistakes.
Podpigment is my concept, and its describing 3rd type of pigment I can see in shrimps. Maybe you have name for it, but I haven't find it yet, that's why I use my own word.
I have found in articles about shrimp colors (Black Tigers which people eat), as background color.
I have no idea, why in this article there are no 'cf.' in the names. I don't know if both shrimps are Caridina serrata, I always use Caridina cf. serrata names for both, because I had found informations that they are serrata, but I'm not sure about it.
z2e8ardg.jpg
tangerine.JPG
Two pictures that to show you how I see shrimp's pigmentation. With color map I made, I can explain all the varieties and selection of shrimps (without mutations). I've done it for myself, because I like shrimps and I'd like to know them better.
Your blog posts had always been a source of information and updates. Thank you very muchWell spoken, and I totally agree with you on this point, Silane
With this blog post, I wanted to give the breeder a wider audience to present his results, as well as his theory on colors - which for me also sounds not fully understandable, as he uses a term he invented himself.
Besides, it is important for the shrimp community to know which shrimp might crossbreed in its tanks. The full genetic analysis should be left for the researchers. However, it looks as if classical taxonomy without DNA analysis lacks some important points.
I see...somewhat disappointed about that
A very warm welcome Kumak! I never expected to see you posting here!
I apologize if my lack of understanding of your concept offended you. I'm still trying to read your blog again to understand it. You have some very interesting color diagrams but I don't know what they mean?
I'm also writing up an article on colors and pigments in shrimps with will also address the topic of golden/snow white shrimps. However, most of that comes from pure paper research and reading from the university's library plus some theories from me. Nothing close to the actual experiments and experience you have.
It would be very interesting to hear how you come up with your podpigment theory. As far as I can understand, podpigment is some kind of base color while pigments are added colors that can be affected by podpigment?
From what I see, "podpigment" is basically the base pigment of any shrimp, in this case probably the color of the flesh in life, or just directly beneath the shell layer. Pigments as given in the diagrams are surface pigments found on the shell layer itself, which are basically chromatophores that can be affected by genes, diet or environmental conditions. The colors affected by "podpigment" is the intermediate layer perhaps, which may look differently depending on the base pigment layer.
The term pod is vast in meaning and is applied differently in different situations, so a different term should have been used.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Hi,
@Navanod
Don't worry about it, I'm glad to be here
Thank you Imke for the link.
@stormhawk
I think your description is very close to mine. Podpigment, where 'pod' in polish mean 'under something'. Of course if you have better propositions for name we can use it in english, I'm waiting for there. I have just found it as 'background color' in some articles, in others there are no this type of pigment.
I have my articles translated to english, but it's my 'english', so many mistakes etc. I can share it with you, if you would like to.
In my articles podpigment is presented as something which is fundamental part of pigment. So without podpigment there are no pigment, but there can be white pigment. To show it on shrimps, we have White Pearl (Neocaridina cf. zhangjiajiensis), and we know Blue Pearls very well.
Blue Pearls have blue podpigment and chocolate spots of pigment, usually no white pigment on them.
We can give podpigment its value, to explain all its abilities. Value can raise by mixing the lines, and fall by inbreeding. See the second variant for our blue pearls.
Blue Pearls by inbreeding, podpigment value is falling from generation to generations (blue color are less and less intensive) and then in our population we can see that there are shrimps which dont show blue color. This process I call 'podpigment stabilisation'. Stabilisation because we have really really stable shrimp when its podpigment value = 0.
Then we see that our blue pearls which are not blue are loseing their pigments spots (pigment is not building) - here you have something like 'rili effect'. And then we take our white pearls with podpigment value 0. So here we can be sure that white pearls wont give us shrimps in other color, and no blue pearls.
In my theory there are no stable variety with podpigment value, because all with special selection we can change to another one, while from full rilis like white pearls we won't. By mixing the lines we can make our variety stable, but not as stable as full rilis. Please dont understand me bad here, because it is only simple form of the full article, we all know that there are no perfect shrimps, and usually in population all shrimp don't have the same value of podpigment. This process can be then long or short, it depends on your own, usually original population.
Mixing the lines make our variety more stable, and podpigment value is rising, so color intensifity is rising too. Sometimes we can see that our shrimps have discolorations, like red fire (Neocaridina cf. heteropoda) to blue or purple, when yellow shrimp (Neocaridina cf. heteropoda) to green. It is because the value of their podpigment is not so big.
Of course value is only concept to show you some effects of different process.
We can take for example Blue Tiger (Caridina cf. cantonensis), in them you can see that they have single spots between stripes (all made by pigment). There is value of podpigment which can paint/color single spots, and bigger value which can paint stripes (there are dependences between pigment and podpigment).
There are value which can paint white pigment spots -> see for example Blue Bolt, which usually have blue podpigment which paint easy white pigment spots.
There are also differences between pigment and white pigment.
With my color map I can show you autoselection of shrimp, which I can explain on different species, because different species have very similar selection, Neocaridina cf. heteropoda, and Caridina cf. cantonensis even identical, but many people don't see it.
What else, selection of saddle and eggs are really similar to pigments, of course with some differences, but not big ones.
I will post articles in my 'english' here tomorrow (in my country it is 8.00 pm) if you are interested in it.
Rafal
Hello Rafal,
Well in that case you are speaking in Polish terms, so pod is apt as a meaning. However for English speakers, I think base pigment would have been a better term. Feel free to post your articles here, it will be an interesting read.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Looking forward to your english explaination, especially of that colorful diagram!
Meanwhile, I need to quickly write too.
This is probably correct, because the whole thing about them being an "undescribed" species, may have been made up to make the shrimp more sought after. Besides, who doesn't want to keep a "new" species?
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Hi,
I think 'base pigment' will be good name too, I will use it then.
General informations about map:
http://www.kumakshrimp.com/dp.html
Please don't look at yellow and green. They are normally located between red=blue and orange.
Of course there are dominating genes and recessive. Second ones we can get by inbreeding (main) alternately with mixing the lines. But we already know that by inbreeding we will get base pigment stabilised with value=0, so no color. All varieties have the same stabilised form which look like White Pearl (Full Rili).
You can get full rili effect on eye (white eyes), on saddle (white eggs), I think you saw shrimps with it. All structures (eggs, eyes, base pigment) work little independent, that is why we can get different colors on different structures
Now if we are talking about mixing the lines we know that it is very good process which make our color varieties more stable. By mixing the lines podpigment value is rising (color intensifity too), when by inbreeding it is falling to 0.
What has happened in natural environment? Why our Neocaridina cf. heteropoda shrimps usually have same color of base pigment and pigment, while Caridina cf. cantonensis have different colors?
Here is first of dependences between base pigment and pigment. We know that mixing the lines make base pigment value higher, one day it can paint/color the pigment spots (first single, then groups of spots like stripes). And here you have reply for your question.
Neocaridina cf. heteropoda usually have single spots located irregular on whole body, while Caridina cf. cantonensis usually have stripes or bands we know well from shrimp farms. Of course there are Neocaridina cf. heteropoda with stripes, as Caridina cf. serrata like Aura Blue without stripes.
Can you see that? The less pigment shrimp have, the easier way to paint it for base color.
Ok now back to map. In natural environment there are times where shrimp populations get izolated from other parts of population. We have inbreeding, mixing lines etc. We know that its not for all populations of course, its just example.
We can take shrimp with black base pigment (its just example to explain you better, in the future I can tell more about map working) which paint pigment spots to its black color. Our population is under inbreeding alternately with mixing the lines. Color is getting recessive. Base pigment black color turned to chocolate=purple, then to red=blue, and then to orange. Colors like chocolate=purple are equivalent. Same for red=blue, yellow=green. Usually one of them is discoloration for another one. But there are no perfect shrimps and if we take red ones from chocolate shrimp which have purple discolorations, our red ones will have purple discolorations. Orange and black can have discolorations too, for example orange can have blue discolorations if its just taken from red shrimps which have blue discoloration. Base pigment can turn if it dont have strong base pigment value, its a condition also if we want to see discolorations. We can take green and yellow base pigments if we cross red with orange or blue with orange with special conditions (from the first link in the topic). Similar thing you can see for Taiwan Bees (Hulk, yellow hulk). Yellow and Green location is really important, because.. there is a chance to back to chocolate and black shrimps from red and orange colors - we know it well that sometimes from red shrimp population we can get ''wild shrimps' which sometimes present green and yellow colors under chocolate pigment.
There are different shrimps, please dont look at which color is dominating which not, because sometimes recessive ones can have stronger values than dominating and effects of mix can be different than we expected.
Some mixes which you know well...
Red Bolt... if we cross shrimps with big difference between base pigment values we can turn color to its discoloration. We had Blue Bolt and Golden for example, one had stronger value thant the other one. Color turned to red from blue. Why not intensive as blue bolt had? Because mix of different base pigment colors make both values lower.
Same for eggs in some Taiwans, or eggs for Red Fires (yellow and green eggs for example).
"Orange Sakura" and "Orange Rili" - be careful, see that if you took new variety from another one, base pigment value is still low, if you take shrimps in new variety you can take rilis in first generation. So if you take new variety cross it with shrimp from different line in color of shrimp from which you take your variety, for orange it is red or blue.
Ok now we start with add pigment. It is more complicated but really easy to understand.
Base pigment is main color, pigment is dependent on base pigment, but sometimes base pigment doesnt have enough value to turn pigment to its color.
Ok we have Tigers with black pigment and black base pigment (just example to explain), its under alternately inbreeding and mixing the lines, base pigment turned from black to chocolate=purple (visible as purple base color under black pigment), then to blue (visible as blue base pigment color under black pigment). Pigment stayed black because base pigment didnt have enough value to turn it to its color (why? Because we need really stable shrimps where pigment color=base pigment color - for example shrimp like this is Caridina dennerli "Cardinal" which have blue base color under red pigment - we know red=blue, our shrimp is really really stable as Red Fire, where red=red(blue)
Here we have three ways...
Inbreeding -> base color get stabilised, golden eye tigers are losing ther pigment (rili), -> Full Rili for cantonensis
Mixing the lines -> base color value is rising, and color pigment to its blue color. If you look one more time to map you can see that there is purple between black and blue, we know purple from Deep Blue Tigers (or simply mixing different lines of Blue Tigers, or mixing shrimp with more pigment and same base pigment color with shrimp as our Blue Tiger - it can be Black Tiger with blue base color mix Blue Tiger - because of pigment quantity on Black tiger we can see purple on Blue Tiger stripes from that mix = pigment is turning). If we continue mixing the lines our stripes will turn to blue.
Alternately inbreeding and mixing the lines -> in effect just base pigment different color present under different pigment color for a long time. Blue base color under black pigment. Black pigment turned to chocolate, then to red.. (Ouii ! we have red tiger golden eyes with using blue tigers only).
But see similiar things between Black Bee and Blue Tiger (Both black pigment, and blue base pigment, so this what I mean here can be a way to take Red Bees from Black Bees too - see the map).
Ok we continue our alternately inbreeding and mixing the lines, we have black pigmented and blue base pigmented shrimp. Our base pigment color turn from blue to orange (here is important thing because there are no perfect shrimps, there are different base pigment values, see that golden base pigment is the same color as orange base pigment on the map - for example if you know Tangerine Tigers well you know it that there are more golden and more orange variations.
And here is second way how to take Red Bees... orange/golden base pigment under black pigment -> black pigment turned first to chocolate then to red then to orange. Please know that if base pigment is really strong there are no steps, but immediately turned from black to orange as it is for tangerine tigers you can see in the link in the top of this topic.
There is something what I call conflict pigment-base pigment. It is an effect of big distance on color map between base pigment color, and pigment color, generally you can know it for super tigers as a orange rostrum and tail, while base pigment has same color as conflict so for Black Bees with conflict - base pigment color is orange/golden, same for super tigers. You can here you reply also why it is lower for chocolate pigmented shrimps with golden base pigment, and generally red bees dont present it.
More pictures with shrimps with conflict you can see on my site in the last link, tangerine tiger also have conflict but its base pigment has high value so you dont see orange rostrum and telson but full body in the same color. Feature of conflict is that while discoloration to for example blue conflict stay in its orange color, it can be very helpful with bee selection.
Only from this what I said above you can take many informations about selection, you have even explanations why you can take chocolate bees from bees with orange rostrum, and why from mixing red bees with black bees (orange base pigment color can turn black pigment closer to base pigment color on the map).
Im sorry by using commercial names like rilis, but I used them only to explain you it easier. Don't understand me bad, if you have questions just ask, I will reply. I make here only short version so I could not tell something what can be very important here.
Kumak Shrimp | Rafal Maciaszek
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