pH too low!!!

[Neondagger]

Sorry, Bro cannot help much. You won the lucky draw lol bad soil batch. I still find it weird that the soil can be as acidic as to low the ph to 5.1. You should post your photo of your tank here so that the more experienced members can help you id what causing the low ph.
From what I see. lava rocks,nana,moss ball. nothing that will lower ph. I never heard of a acidic rock. He do not have driftwood in his tank.

It's easier to use soil for shrimp tank as long as they buffer to the right ph. So you no need to worry much. alot of people use benibachi soil, mosura soil, ada amazonia soil(but it's quite acidic sometime. I got 5.8ph), Borneowild soil. This few brands are the top notch brands for soil and are preferred choice.

You might want to transfer the shrimps into a holding tank or a container and try take bowl of the soil and put into the pail with dechlorine water. still the ph of the water 7.2. If the soil is bad, it should buffer to 5.1 too. then we can findout whats the exact buffering state of the soil. To id the cause.

If you are holding the shrimps in a container and changing the soil. I not sure how long can they last in a small container, The bigger the better, maybe put it in a pail.
Try not to get those soil with alot of ammonia (ada amazonia) because it's will increase your cycling period due to the ammonia leak out from the soil. You can decrease the time needed to cycle the tank by doing 100% water change after changing the soil. So that most of the ammonia released from the soil will be washed away by the first water change. still your media already season. should not be a problem as bateria should be presence. you also can try hastening the process by adding bateria colony like bt-9.

[mimin5zidane]

Its ok bro. You've been helpful from the start. I think i will reset only after i see my shrimps not feeding well. The crs are doing very well actually. Only the rillis a lil hesitant to come out of hiding. I shall trnasfer them to my first tank which I've seen fire reds breeding. The reason i dont want them to mix is because i dont want them to crossbreed. But for now i think is fine. Thanks bro neon for helping! And thanks to other bros for giving useful info as well.

This is such a great yet poisonous forum. HAHAHA

[stormhawk]

The problem with using soil is that you have no idea when exactly, their efficiency to buffer the water expires. Some say it lasts for 2 years, others say longer, but there's no definite answer to this. Eventually, you will have to use things like peat moss or similar to maintain the desired pH level, which defeats the purpose of the soil. Soil based substrate will disintegrate into some sort of mud-like substance over time.

I still think using an inert gravel is better for the long run, since you can tweak the pH of the water with various methods and not just rely on the soil alone.

If you do wish to test the soil, do it with a container of distilled water and normal tap water, then you will get the actual comparison. Dechlorinated water is basically still tap water, minus the chlorine and chloramine, so it will contain some dissolved minerals.

[mimin5zidane]

Hi guys.

I might have found the problem. I will explain the whole scenario.
So here goes.

Tank 1

HELP Advance soil for shrimps. When i used this first time, pH was ridiculously low at 5-5.5.
But now it has stabilized at 6.1-6.2.
Fire reds are breeding and growing well. So no concern.

Tank 2

This is what we've been discussing about.
Tank is quite bare with only java moss, nanas, moss balls, riccia and lava rocks.
Gex soil is used and I just remembered adding about 4 handfuls of leftover HELP Advance Soil.
In the beginning, pH was 6.2-6.5.
After 2.5 weeks, pH lingers at 5.13-5.5
No deaths occurs, CRS looks healthy except for rillis hiding and hesitant to come out.
Up till now, 50% of total volume of water change is used with DI water.

Tank 3

This tank is the tank set up same day as tank 2. 100% Gex soil is used as well. 100% tap water with no water change yet.
Didn't plan to start this tank early so I let nature take its course.
Here goes the pH, its at 5.97! ~6. Pretty good for Gex soil.

Conclusion is that the HELP Advance Soil is buffering it pretty low. Maybe its because I disturbed the substrate at one point of time during water change.
Another reason is maybe the use of DI water. Tap water i believe have a lil bit of buffering capability?
Correct me if I am wrong. Please shoot me questions so that I can investigate further.
Thank you bros for helping!

[stormhawk]

DI water may not be advisable in this case as it contains no minerals to buffer against the soil's acidifying effects. You can still use DI or RO water but you must add some minerals back in after the process is done. You might want to switch to a 50/50 mix each water change with DI water + aged tap water.

Or, you can try with a small piece of Minerock to see if it will buffer against the soil.

[mimin5zidane]

By the way, TDS reading of my tank is 212. Its pretty high for a shrimp tank right? But the pH is still dropping to ~5.1

[stormhawk]

212 is a little bit higher than the norm but if the shrimps don't show any ill effects you shouldn't worry too much.

[Neondagger]

TDS can means alot of things. a more accurate reading would be a test on your gh and kh. 212 is still ok.
But sometimes high tds meaning high gh also. Do a test on your gh and kh.

[mimin5zidane]

My pH keeps dropping. Its going down to 5 now.

[Neondagger]

Ok your information is very weird. Basically DI water should have a TDS of 0.
your first fill. Should be full aged water with might as a tds of 60-100? for my 1ft tank, currently cycling. With full aged water. 100tds.

Lets assume you have 100tds. After 2.5weeks tds gone up to 200 after adding livestock and also some rocks. by right lava rock should not alter much. my did not alter.(Black lava rocks)
You did Water change with DI water. 50%. Your tds should be drop till at least 150 by now. why is it 212? for a new tank with aged water it should not be so high.

I said in the previous post High tds can mean alot of stuff because it's the total dissolved solid in the water. (I do not know what exactly is the minerals)
It could indirectly means High GH. With a tds of 212, you possibly get 4-6gh from experiences but again it might not be true.

Tap water does not have water buffering capacity to speak cause the water cannot buffer itself... Lol make sense?
The basic thing about buffering ph with aged water or DI water is something like this correct me if I am wrong. Water come out of filtration with unknown products and cause the water to have a ph of 7.2-7.8.
It's because of the things the water gone through that buffer the water to 7.2ph.
If you keep the water in a pail with nothing. The water will stay at 7.2ph as there is nothing to disturb the water.
The reason why soil change the ph value of water is because of the acids in the soil that are leak out. The one that causes the ph to be low is the amount of acid it leaks, this also the same reason why something if you got too much soil compared to the amount of water. the ph is lower.

Example 5litre of water and 5litre of soil maybe ph 6.0.
1litre of water and 9litre of soil maybe ph 5.5? Due to the fact the amount of acid leak out is more and the amount of water to the amount of acid ratio is bigger.
Correct me if I am wrong. I never actually tried.

This is also why people say shizhen lower ph. Because of the humic acid it has but too little to cause any changes in big tanks. Unless you throw the whole bottle inside.
Ketapang leave. Has acidic property. too thats why people use it to lower ph.
This is just senarios. it's not fully correct.

Lets put it into maths form.
300 = 9.0ph
200 = 8.0ph alkaline
100= 7.0 neutral
50 = 6.0 acidic
Water = 100
soil = -50
coral chips(1litre) = 150

Water + soil = 50. (6.0ph)
Water + coral chips = 250(8.5 ph)
Water + soil + coral chips = 200(8.0ph)

Has time goes by. soil value will decrease. Maybe after 1year.
13th month = -45
14th month = -40
15th month = -20
16th month = 0

This time
Water + soil = 100 (7.0ph)
Water + coral chips = 250(8.5 ph)
Water + soil + coral chips = 250(8.5ph)

new soil buffer up and down due to the fact it has not settle. after 2 weeks it should settle and you see ph start to stablise.
but for your senario.
ph keep dropping.

1week = 6.5
2week = 6.0
2.5week = 5.5
3week = 5.0

So if there is really not peat of any form of acidic property from other sources.
Then means your soil value keep increasing. -50,-60,-70.
This soil is a bad soil to put it. I am make a soil maker so I dun know how soil really form or works.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Fact = same soil, same litre of water. ph value should stay the same.

Bro after reading this. I am sure you get alot of ??? on your head. try to absorb and think through.

??? are
1. why tds so high even with DI water wc. tds should go down.
2. why ph value going down. is there any acidic item in your tank?

[stormhawk]

Tap water does not have water buffering capacity to speak cause the water cannot buffer itself... Lol make sense?
The basic thing about buffering ph with aged water or DI water is something like this correct me if I am wrong. Water come out of filtration with unknown products and cause the water to have a ph of 7.2-7.8.
It's because of the things the water gone through that buffer the water to 7.2ph.
If you keep the water in a pail with nothing. The water will stay at 7.2ph as there is nothing to disturb the water.

Tap water contains trace elements and other minerals required for human consumption, which in turn prevents the water from being too acid, otherwise it would have corroded pipes long ago. This in effect, is the buffering capacity of tap water, in this case, against the effects of the soil. Stagnant tap water in a pail will change pH slowly as CO2 from the atmosphere gets dissolved in the water over time.

Read this link for what is usually in our tap water:
http://www.pub.gov.sg/general/waters...Treatment.aspx

Calcium carbonate is present in tap water as a buffering agent against acidity. TDS values vary from region to region within Singapore, and pH can differ as well from town to town. Because our tapwater is mixed in with NEWater, which is basically RO water after the whole process has been done, the TDS values may fluctuate.

DI/RO water does not contain these trace elements nor calcium carbonate and is basically pure water, hence the inability to buffer against the acidity from the soil.

[Neondagger]

Tap water contains trace elements and other minerals required for human consumption, which in turn prevents the water from being too acid, otherwise it would have corroded pipes long ago. This in effect, is the buffering capacity of tap water, in this case, against the effects of the soil. Stagnant tap water in a pail will change pH slowly as CO2 from the atmosphere gets dissolved in the water over time.

Read this link for what is usually in our tap water:
http://www.pub.gov.sg/general/waters...Treatment.aspx

Calcium carbonate is present in tap water as a buffering agent against acidity. TDS values vary from region to region within Singapore, and pH can differ as well from town to town. Because our tapwater is mixed in with NEWater, which is basically RO water after the whole process has been done, the TDS values may fluctuate.

DI/RO water does not contain these trace elements nor calcium carbonate and is basically pure water, hence the inability to buffer against the acidity from the soil.

Thanks for correcting me. I was thinking it should be not be so simple.
So by saying this. Aged water does have buffering capacity as calcium carbonate is presence.
So DI water with soil might give you 6.0 but ages water would give you 6.5 is because of the buffering effect of calcium carbornate and not the intiate water ph.
So as he use Di water to do water change he actually extracting calcium carbonate out of the water and thus lower the ph even more after the intiate ph of Di water lose it's intiate ph value.

Then the tds should decrease even more cause more mineral is being extracted and replace by Di water.
The only way to know why his tds is so high is to do a test on his tap water and find that is there a dilemma or not. That will answer our question.

Since stagnant water cause ph to be lower as co2 dissolved. He should areate his tank and his aging water and his holding pail.
Bro ignore my maths post it's inaccurate as it should have 2 parameter instead of one.

1 parameter intiate ph. 2 parameter. Buffering capacity. There is even more than that as we haven state kh too.
My math post only got intiate ph stated.

Putting the logic aside. The main question is still unaswered. Why should he do as he gotten a bad batch of soil. Hold the shrimps in a pail? Then change the soil. Then areate and cycle the tank to cause ph to stablise then transfer your shrimps. Actually I did say this in my previous post. Do update us as we learn from each other mistake. If no one share no one learns.

[stormhawk]

That is right in the first paragraph. The use of DI water will dilute the TDS but will not fix the pH issue, which is why a mix of aged tap water and DI water is the best bet.
Of late, the tap water parameters can change from time to time. Ever since it was mixed with NEWater, the TDS readings may change every now and then.

The temporary tank solution for the shrimps while he resets the tank is the only feasible option, short of selling them off and restarting all over again.
If the soil batch is defective like you say, then there is a high chance that no matter what he does, the pH will still go lower and lower over time.
By defective I mean that somehow, the soil is leeching the acids too quickly into the water column.

I read the website for the H.E.L.P. Advanced soil, and it contains a carbon coated outer layer that covers the soil within the granules.
Basically, the presence of this carbon, is probably absorbing whatever buffering minerals there might be present, thus causing the pH to remain at that low level.
Mixing soils is not advisable due to different manufacturing processes or "secrets".

If zidane decides to restart the tank, using products from the same manufacturer should be his best bet.
Follow the steps given in the stickies on how to set up a tank for CRS and/or Cherries (with respect to the Rili) and he should not face this issue again.

[cheetf]

Just use a handful of coral chips in a bag and hang it in the tank, as you get the pH that you want slowly remove the amount of coral chips. If you find that the GH gets too high after that use distilled water to lower it. Beats water changes every day. PH swinging up and down like that cannot be good for the shrimp. Many have used coral chips without any problems, key is patience. Change in a shrimp tank must happen slowly.

[Neondagger]

Just use a handful of coral chips in a bag and hang it in the tank, as you get the pH that you want slowly remove the amount of coral chips. If you find that the GH gets too high after that use distilled water to lower it. Beats water changes every day. PH swinging up and down like that cannot be good for the shrimp. Many have used coral chips without any problems, key is patience. Change in a shrimp tank must happen slowly.

Ok now that I think through. I see what you are leading to.
As soil become less acidic after time. You use coral chips to buffer the intiate acidity then removing coral chips slowly day by day. As the soil lost some of it's acidity after awhile as to get the preferred ph. Then coral chips will not be needed right?

This method sounds like a plan.

Now I get more enlightenment.
The soil might not be this acidic forever can might change after 1month. Using coral chips as a temporary method to stablise the ph higher. Then when the soil is not as acidic. Coral chips not needed.
But if soil is this acidic for a long period of time.
After 1-2 months all the coral chips would be taken out and there is no buffer agent to compete with the soil. Then the ph will return back to 5.0?
Then you get low ph and high gh at the same time. Then need to do 10% wc every 3days to buffer the ph and gh at the same time. Did we just cause more problem?
So my question is will the soil maintain this acidic for a long period of time? 2-3 month? Cause I am not a expert of soil and I only use soil twice.

From my experiences I use ADA soil. First week I get 5.0 ph then later then shoot back to 5.8ph. Maybe just give it sometime to lose that intiate acidity? Without any coral chips?

Would the use of coral chips be a better long term solution than changing soil?

[cheetf]

The soil might not be this acidic forever can might change after 1month. Using coral chips as a temporary method to stablise the ph higher. Then when the soil is not as acidic. Coral chips not needed.
But if soil is this acidic for a long period of time.
After 1-2 months all the coral chips would be taken out and there is no buffer agent to compete with the soil. Then the ph will return back to 5.0?
Then you get low ph and high gh at the same time. Then need to do 10% wc every 3days to buffer the ph and gh at the same time. Did we just cause more problem?
So my question is will the soil maintain this acidic for a long period of time? 2-3 month? Cause I am not a expert of soil and I only use soil twice.

From my experiences I use ADA soil. First week I get 5.0 ph then later then shoot back to 5.8ph. Maybe just give it sometime to lose that intiate acidity? Without any coral chips?

Would the use of coral chips be a better long term solution than changing soil?

Key is to do it gradually, add and remove gradually. All have to be done while monitoring the ph. Not just when you get the right ph - just remove everything, of course the ph will go down again, but to how much, I cannot tell you.

Coral chips is not a soil replacement.

[felix_fx2]

Guys. Notice there is a thread of the opposite nature haha.

Chee: you mean to monitor ph and add/remove coral chips accordingly?

[cheetf]

Guys. Notice there is a thread of the opposite nature haha.

Chee: you mean to monitor ph and add/remove coral chips accordingly?

Yup, a few pieces at a time. One small piece won't make that much difference.

[mimin5zidane]

Hi bro cheetf!

I am doing exactly what you say. In my current 2 feet tank. I put in a handful and hang on the tank. From pH4.9 in the afternoon, it is now 5.83. But now i am aiming for 6.2 to be on the safe side for my rilli shrimp. And also i am planning to make this a planted tank. And I notice that plants usually tolerate a minimum pH of 6. Only a handful of them can withstand below 6. Is that correct?

GH now is not tested yet. But tds reading is at 210.

My plan now is to observe the pH and adjust amount of coral chips to get pH and GH right. With that, i hope this can be a successful planted tank with CRS and Rillis.

[Neondagger]

Hi bro cheetf!

I am doing exactly what you say. In my current 2 feet tank. I put in a handful and hang on the tank. From pH4.9 in the afternoon, it is now 5.83. But now i am aiming for 6.2 to be on the safe side for my rilli shrimp. And also i am planning to make this a planted tank. And I notice that plants usually tolerate a minimum pH of 6. Only a handful of them can withstand below 6. Is that correct?

GH now is not tested yet. But tds reading is at 210.

My plan now is to observe the pH and adjust amount of coral chips to get pH and GH right. With that, i hope this can be a successful planted tank with CRS and Rillis.

Grats! Do update us. If you face anymore problems