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Hahaha good luck. I think i will hang out here in your thread since mine became a witch hunt.
But how do you quantify whiteness?
Hi fellow shrimp enthusiasts,
I would like to consult everyone on the current grading system for colors based grading for Caridina cantonensis (ie. CRS, BDS, PRL, PBL, BKK, WR, BB and even golden and snowwhite).
In particular, I think this is very relevant to the pure lines since for some strange reasons, they're being graded for colors but I still hear pattern grading terms (eg. SS grade) being used.
This is confusing to me.
Before anyone ask if I have an agenda, yes. I'm trying to work out a color grading system that we can perhaps reference locally. But to do so, I need to know if an international standard currently exist. My limited googling failed to turn anything up, maybe because the details may be in mandarin or japanese.
With that being said, please be objective and do not bring the "purity" discussion into this thread, we've had more than enough threads for those.
Go with purely what meets the eyes. A super solid colored CRS can have golden genes, which may impact it's worth, but a grading system should just be focused on the main criteria, the phenotype colors.
Also, please try to provide links or source of any existing grading systems instead of just saying "this super famous renowned breeder in Siberia said blar blar".
Thanks in advance
Hahaha good luck. I think i will hang out here in your thread since mine became a witch hunt.
But how do you quantify whiteness?
this are taken from Green Chapter site
BENIBACHI CRS (Mix Band バンドミックス) : 20 gold coin
BENIBACHI CRS (Band S / バンド S) :38 gold coin
BENIBACHI CRS (日の丸 A) : 75 gold coin
BENIBACHI CRS (MOSURA A / モスラA) : 140 gold coin
BENIBACHI CRS (日の丸 S) :150 gold coin
BENIBACHI CRS (MOSURA S / モスラS) : 260 gold coin
CRS - CRazy about Shrimps
- Alan Phang -
You can't explain it simply, you don't understand it (well enough )..." - Albert Einstein
The same as we quantify red and black. Overall.Originally Posted by cheetf
The pattern grading should account for the amount of whiteness relative to red/black. The color grading would account for the quality of whiteness, how solid it is.
Thank bro, but erm, no offence to GC, the names are mainly pattern related grading terms.
Quantify color and making a grading system base on color is hard, not many has good sense of color, good tools to use.
However, a guide for choosing good PRL can be made based on what to look out for on a PRL, its features what is desirable feature, what is not.
silane
Problem with white is, many factors can influence the intensity. Lighting, water, stress,....
I think the way the taiwanese do it is really good.
They will name out the pattern in chinese, but use the A/S, S, SS, SSS as grading of the thickness of white.
So basically if you say something like.. A/S Hino.. it means that the thickness of white is not very good. If you say something like SSS Hino, it means that the white is show-quality. In Taiwan, SS grade shrimps are around 1000-2000NTD depending on lineage and source. However the jump in price from SS to SSS is huge. You can expect to pay 10,000 to as much as 30,000 NTD for an SSS grade shrimp from Taiwan.
Yes, water is a big factor. I ever met a case of a Japanese breeder keeping his shrimps at ph 6.9 and TDS at 400ppm, I tested his water and discovered these, I told him I do not expect a good breeder to use such water parameter to condition his shrimps before sales to push out color. But that is only 1 single case out of many purchases I made, generally, Japaneses are good breeders striving to produce good shrimps.
silane
That's my aim of this thread. With your great experience, have you seen any credible attempts at grading the colors yet?
This issue affects all shrimps, and all colors, not just whites on Caridina. Lets assume that we're talking the best colors under good conditions in the breeder's tank?
Thank you for your input bro.
However, this is exactly whats confusing to me. Using pattern grading terms interchangeably for colors.
Also, is there a clear definition on what qualifies for SS color and SSS color? One person's SS may be another's SSS.
I'm trying to search but everything is in mandarin. On top of that, the Taiwanese have a wicked sense of humor and tends to type chinese characters when speaking in Mĭn Nán dialect.
Problem is, for many shrimps we have not established what a 'good' condition standard is yet. Without a constant results are meaningless. Just like the white balance of digital cameras. Unless you have calibrated it, photos will come out with colours far from what you should see.
Logically, there should be a level playing field so that we can grade the shrimp based on the shrimp itself and not based on the conditions that influence he shrimp. So in theory, to get a better picture, each grading should be done together with the water parameters given. Hence, the 'in theory part'.
I think if you're someone active in the hobby there, you will know what is SS and SSS. Like I mentioned before, SSS grade shrimps in Taiwan are show quality.
This shrimp won the coolshrimp competition just a few weeks ago.. this would be a definition of SSS grade.
*Taken from coolshrimp-auction website
SS Grade whiteness is probably the ones that we hobbyist in Singapore see from our local PRL breeders, maybe not even that. Could be the ones we have are merely S grade. What I can say with great confidence is that our local hobbyist are not exposed to the SSS grade shrimp. I can count with the fingers in one hand the number of people who owns / have access to these shrimps. Those breeders who THINK they do and paid $200-300 for them.. think again. You will never be able to buy show quality shrimps for under $800. All you have to do is compare your shrimp with the picture I posted.
In terms of the highest of grades, you get what you pay for. You'll never be able to get a brand new Alien Ware for under $1,000.. nor will you be able to get a brand new Mercedes for under $50,000. Likewise in the shrimp world.. it just doesn't happen. Unless you're sleeping with the breeder I suppose... even then you're kinda paying for the shrimp :P
Hence the "what meets the eye" assessment methods which is similar to what's being done now anyway.
Buyers will assess purely by what they see. Too bad if a seller have a solid shrimp that looks faded because his tank's condition is not as ideal. The grading will be purely based on the colors of the shrimp at the time of assessment, regardless of conditions or how nice the shrimp may in theory look if placed in "ideal" conditions.
This will also push for buyers to demand to see the shrimps in their home tanks, instead of looking at faded shrimps in bags and being promised that they'll "color up" later.
Lets set the basis for grading first, then worry about what people can do with photoshops to try and cheat the system
Excellent work bro. I'll borrow this image as an example?I think if you're someone active in the hobby there, you will know what is SS and SSS. Like I mentioned before, SSS grade shrimps in Taiwan are show quality.
This shrimp won the coolshrimp competition just a few weeks ago.. this would be a definition of SSS grade.
*Taken from coolshrimp-auction website
SS Grade whiteness is probably the ones that we hobbyist in Singapore see from our local PRL breeders, maybe not even that. Could be the ones we have are merely S grade. What I can say with great confidence is that our local hobbyist are not exposed to the SSS grade shrimp. I can count with the fingers in one hand the number of people who owns / have access to these shrimps. Those breeders who THINK they do and paid $200-300 for them.. think again. You will never be able to buy show quality shrimps for under $800. All you have to do is compare your shrimp with the picture I posted.
In terms of the highest of grades, you get what you pay for. You'll never be able to get a brand new Alien Ware for under $1,000.. nor will you be able to get a brand new Mercedes for under $50,000. Likewise in the shrimp world.. it just doesn't happen. Unless you're sleeping with the breeder I suppose... even then you're kinda paying for the shrimp :P
I'm sure I can provide clearer definitions based on this picture and other lower grades. The aim is to remove all ambiguities.
Also, I must request for everyone to please not bring costs and values into the discussion at this point, although the part about what grades are available locally is interesting.
On the topic of ideal water condition, I am a big believer of conditioning. I believe that if your water parameters are within a certain range within the species requirement, special care and conditioning can bring it back up near to its maximum potential. But I think that the maximum potential will only be achieved if you can exactly replicate the conditions that they were born in. Like in fish, how are the locally available entry-level Apistogrammas (Cacatuoides, Agassizii) so hardy.. because they've been bred in waters that are more akin to our tap water. Of course this is opening another big pandora's box because some of these fish may be hardy, but will still only colour up when given conditions closer to their wild home.
CRS however, don't have a wild home. Their ancestors currently living there are so distantly related... it's like a 10th cousin or something :P Almost not blood related. So, where is this 'wild home' that CRS come from? The breeders tank? I think right now we can't really take this into consideration since we're only talking about how to grade a shrimp. Of course, it will have to be graded at their most prime. Who in their right mind will under-grade their lifestock haha!
I am a strong supporter of the way the Taiwanese have done it, something like the way the Germans have done it with their K-system. Do away with the coding of patterns. To avoid confusion, have the patterns named out: Banded, V-Band, Tiger tooth, Hino, Mosura, Crownhead, Flowerhead. From there we can devise an easy system of determining colour codes. To avoid confusion.. we have to no longer use the A, S, SS, SSS system. Even now people are using it wrong. Some refer to Mosura grade as SSS, some refer to Hinos with very little red as SSS. So our current grading system is really crazily broken.
So I propose an adaptation of the Taiwanese system, with a mix of the K-system that the Germans use..
Sure, it's not mine anyway.. haha!
I think discussing the costing will bring up a very heated debate further down the discussion but it's something we really can't run away from eventually.. One step at a time, we try to iron out our very own AQ CRS grading guide and see if it will be adopted readily. Maybe once we have it ironed out, we can propose to Silane to help promote it, since he has international standing on this matter and can help push this out for us.
Here's another picture from the coolshrimp auction.. This is another PRL lineage that's been personalised by a Taiwanese breeder.
*Taken from coolshrimp-auction website
I think no need to pursue pattern based CRS grading, just a matter of time, CRS will be only 1 grade. There is a sign of grade compression for CRS in overseas.
However, for PRL, there is need to have some form of guide. I am not sure how that can get everyone to agree on it, as there are too many factors to consider let say on white, its thickness, have crack and temperature of whiteness. What disturbing is, a shrimp appear on photo can be look different in a tank especially the factor, whiteness.
Ecalyte suggestion on color.pattern is a good base to implement the system.
Last edited by silane; 16th Jan 2012 at 11:57.
silane
Germans are working on naming and grading guides international use, I am invited to go for a discussion in Germany. I am sure any form of guide or standard we formulate here will be useful or adopt for international use.
silane
I am not saying do not do water conditioning. What I am saying is when a shrimp is graded, it should come with information of what it is kept in at that point in time. So that if we get 2 grades of shrimp in the same water parameters you can tell them apart.
Well of course! I mean isn't that how it's done now anyway? Like most people will just say what their tank parameters are. But even then you may not be able to trust them if they are holding out on some secret? haha.. Like there is a common unspoken truth that breeders in Taiwan will mix the packing bag with their tank water and distilled water. This is to hide their actual TDS value of their tank.. One of my Taiwanese friends shared this secret with me, but.. I cannot be confident of its factual truth. All I can say is that I trust my friend.. hehe
Sigh, sad but true. Patterns we can quantify but colour and whiteness........
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