All my fish will be dead by morning!!

**tetrakid** · 29th Mar 2012, 19:39

@hardric

Believe it or not, I am a most ardent believer in science. Only science can produce 'magic', so to speak.

**Blue Whale** · 29th Mar 2012, 20:36

Dear Sazeyplus2,

Would you not update us of your predicament?

It would be great if you can showcase a photo of your tank as well. Looking forward!

**felix_fx2** · 29th Mar 2012, 20:43

Originally Posted by Blue Whale

Dear Sazeyplus2,

Would you not update us of your predicament?

It would be great if you can showcase a photo of your tank as well. Looking forward!

He is at work most likely, US timing.
Not sure which state otherwise can Google to see average conditions over that zone posted by folks around that region.

**tetrakid** · 29th Mar 2012, 20:57

@Sazeyplus2

Sorry that I didn't pay attention to your country. I had assumed you are local.

What I meant was simply not to overfeed your fish. (In local parlance, 'tapau' means to pack the remaining food and bring home).

Originally Posted by tetrakid

Just a reminder, make sure the buffet is stingily served and they have no chance to overeat and even tapau (pack home). If you are very strict in this regard every day, they will still be happy, not to worry.

**doppelbanddwarf** · 29th Mar 2012, 21:07

Sorry I think I might not be clear enough in the earlier post.
You theory is this:
no "splashing" = more surface agitation than "splashing", especially for large tanks. Correct me if I misunderstood you.

However, most planted tank hobbyists would minimise "splashing" to reduce CO2 loss. In short, "splashing" to them means more surface agitation which leads to more CO2 loss.

**tetrakid** · 29th Mar 2012, 21:54

@doppelbanddwarf

The important issue I am addressing is not about whether there's 'splashing' or no 'splashing'. It is about effective oxygenation via the water surface.

If the water level is up to the lip of the hang-on filter, the force of the outflowing water will cause a current which pushes the water outwards to the rest of the tank surface rather than dropping into it at one spot, the latter of which will happen if the water level is lower than that. Most good hang-on filters are designed with a lip to facilitate the lateral push if used correctly. To enhance the effectiveness in this regard, I add my own customised lip. But with the more powerful canister filters, this is not necessary.

There's a difference between merely 'agitating' (moving) a water surface and breaking the surface with proper agitation, especially when a surface skin is present which acts an effective insulating layer.

**doppelbanddwarf** · 29th Mar 2012, 22:02

My point is surface tension needs to be broken to promote gas exchange and merely having a moving surface does not mean you have broken the surface tension. So why would having a current to push the water outwards to the rest of the tank surface be more effective?

**tetrakid** · 29th Mar 2012, 22:26

So when will the surface be broken? By piercing it at one spot with a narrow stream of water? I will agree with you that that will certainly 'break' the surface.

**felix_fx2** · 29th Mar 2012, 22:50

Folks... don't you think your not helping the TS at all by turning his SOS for help thread into a discussion about which is the better way to oxygenation the water?

**tetrakid** · 29th Mar 2012, 22:59

So sorry about the long-drawn-out exchange.

In fact I had initially anticipated it and had wanted to avoid such disagreements by simply saying I don't know. But somehow that good post by igg struck a chord with me and I was 'hooked', lol.

Originally Posted by felix_fx2

Folks... don't you think your not helping the TS at all by turning his SOS for help thread into a discussion about which is the better way to oxygenation the water?

**felix_fx2** · 29th Mar 2012, 23:15

Myth or Fact, this will be something useful to some other folks.
Why not request to split the content to another thread.

**doppelbanddwarf** · 29th Mar 2012, 23:17

Sorry about this. I agree that this has gone off topic too much.

**tetrakid** · 29th Mar 2012, 23:35

The matter under discussion is relevant to this thread.

Originally Posted by felix_fx2

Myth or Fact, this will be something useful to some other folks.
Why not request to split the content to another thread.

**iggi3z** · 30th Mar 2012, 03:58

Originally Posted by hardric

Dear iggi3z,

I did not misunderstand anything don't worry. You already mentioned that 0 nitrates meant the cycle was not completed and therefore it was a reason for the fish to die. You only talked about oxygen levels because of the "lip" issue.

To others,
Anyway, I believe opinions in the forum should ideally be backed by evidence. I am unlikely to believe something just because a forummer posted it. There is no "secret" to effective oxygen exchange in water. All these have been documented and math formulas have already been formulated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_aeration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_angle

In short, the best ways of putting oxygen into water is through 1. passing liquid through air and 2. passing air through liquid. The 1st process is basically fountains, waterfall and even raindrops. The 2nd process is air stones. The bigger the surface area it hits, the better. Microbubbles are the most effective. Of course, both means that there is a breaking of surface tension.

Why having the lip submerged is not the best way of putting oxygen into the water? Because of the contact angle. To break through the surface tension, the most important is the vertical drop. The force of the vertical drop must break through force of the surface tension. If the water from the filter just smoothly flows into the water, it might not break the surface tension. Therefore, no exchange of gasses.

I have to agree with bro hadric on this one. Oxygen exchange can only be accomplished when the surface tension is broken. However, the effectiveness of o2 exchange will depend on the area.I think a good illustration to sum up some views is that imagine using a rainbar to pump water out.

Having the water shooting 90deg into the water while the entire rainbar is out of the water may not be as effective as having the rainbar at the waterline shooting across the water.

In anycase, when discussing about the "lip" theory. I feel it will depend on the flow of the water. I personally am using a hang on filter. And I don't raise the water to the lip as I rather it splash to promote o2 exchange. Hence, was curious about the "lip" theory which prompted my response and inevitably fueled this debate.

I think will be a good idea to split this thread too. Sorry for being off topic. Hope TS update us soon!

**tetrakid** · 30th Mar 2012, 06:23

Sorry for having misundertstood you too. I had inferred from your post that you saw the merit of raising the water level to be in line with the filter oulet's 'lip'. But judging from this post of yours, obviously my assumption was wrong, since you said you were merely curious about the practice. I had assumed too much. Again, sorry for bringing up the 'lip' idea.

Under the circumstances, it would be best if all readers will simply ignore my idea with regard to the 'lip' and water level. All the best.

Originally Posted by iggi3z

In anycase, when discussing about the "lip" theory. I feel it will depend on the flow of the water. I personally am using a hang on filter. And I don't raise the water to the lip as I rather it splash to promote o2 exchange. Hence, was curious about the "lip" theory which prompted my response and inevitably fueled this debate.

I think will be a good idea to split this thread too. Sorry for being off topic. Hope TS update us soon!