Algae and BGA on new tank setup

[neon]

Hi :

Started my new 6ft planted tank. Spot algae on glass and gravel and black hair algae also spotted in many glosso and hair glass.

some info :
-------------
dimension :6' x 2' x 2'
temp : 25-26 deg C with chiller
lighting : 150w x 2 MH . 12pm to 11pm (11 hrs)
CO2 : excessive (after hearing bro in the forum to blast the co2 for strong light tank)
setup period : 2 weeks
gravel : lapis USA sand. 3 inch front , 5 inch back (inclusive of 1.5 inch subtrate). Added 2 small pails of gravel from 6 months old tanks on 14th day.
subtrate : 1.5 inch below JBL aquaplus mixed with gravel
canister filter : eheim 1260 + > 10 kg of biohome + 70 bioballs

water tests
------------------------
5th day : PH 6.5
ammonia : 0
nitrite : 0
nitrate : 20ppm
KH : did not test

7th day water change 50%

9th day dosed TMG 40ml

13th day water change 50%

14th day : PH 6.2 (using AP Inc test kit)
PH 6.5 (using Sera test kit)
KH 80ppm (using AP Inc test kit)
KH 30ppm (using Sera test kit) - change from blue color to clear on the 3rd drop. 4th,5th drops remains light yellow,brown.
ammonia : 0 (using AP Inc test kit)
nitrite : 0 (using AP Inc test kit)
nitrate : 0 (using Sera test kit)


dosing
----------------------------------------
7th day, 40ml TMG


Bioload
----------------------------------------
4th day - 2 small gold fishes + 6 platties on
7th day - 10 cardinals + 2 rasbora + 4 oto
10th day - 20 cardinals + 4 oto
12th day - 70 cardinals + 2 sae + 4 oto + 3 rummy nose
14th day - 1 golden algae eater + 4 yamato + 2 malayan

Plants
---------------------------------------
Egeria densa ( 1 big bunch - 15 stalks)
Aponogeton bolvinianus - 1 small bunch
Aponogeton crispus - 1 bulb 7 leaves
Aponogeton madagascariensis - 1 bulb 1 leaf
Aponogeton ulvaceus - 1 big bunch 13 long leaves
Bacopa Caroliniana - 2 bunches
Blyxa Japonica - 10 bunches
Echinodorus amazonicus - 3 big big bunches - 80-90 long leaves
hair glass - 2 handful
dwarf hair glass - 2 handful
Glosso - cover the front about 20% of tank
Hottonia Inflata - 1 big bunch about 15 stalks
Hygrophila difformis - 4 bunches
Hygrophila stricta - 2 bunches
Limnophila aquatica - 3 long stalks
ludwigia arcuata or repens - 1 big bunch (20-30 stalks)
ludwigia glandulosa - 2 stalks
Micrantehmum umbrosum - 1 bunch ( 20-30 stalks)
Nuphar Japonica - 2 bunches ( 20 leaves)
Nymphaea - 3 small bunches
Vallisneria gigantea - 30 stalks
Vallisneria americana - 20-30 stalks

Note : micrantehmum umbrosum, Echinodorus amazonicus, Hygrophila difformis, Bacopa Caroliniana are added in on 13th day to put in more fast growing plant .

Algae
---------------------------------------
lots of spot algae on front and back side of glass and gravel
lots of spot algae on middle open ground gravel
lots of black hair algae on glosso and hair glass


Questions to ask experience bros out there
------------------------------------------
1) what should I do in order to maintain the current existing bioload and get rid of all the algae during the initial period, on the following :
- dosing trace
- lighting period and any break
- co2 level
- KH,PH level
- water change level and frequency
- how long to continue this regime for the initial period

2) after the initial period , again on the following regime :
- dosing trace
- lighting period and any break
- co2 level
- KH,PH level
- water change level and frequency

3) currently I have bought TMG, Dr mallick products (LushGro-Aqua, LushGro-Mcros, and KH2PO4 . I wish to use Dr mallick product and I need to know what the dosage for the initial period and after ward also.

4) Are test kits adequate to measure the parameter? What are your recommendation ? What is the recommended frequency to measure each parameter during the inital as well as after ?

Appreciate any comment and sharing . Thanks in advance.


Cheers

[barmby]

hi,

Use KH-PH chart to determine your CO2 content in the tank. Ensure 20-35ppm.

Your problem is same as mine (I got a 5ft tank). Water circulation. Make sure once light is turned on - the CO2 content goes up ASAP within 1 to 2 hours.

Plant really cares about CO2 but not pH value. Get your CO2 level correct, and proceed to fertilization. Else you get even more algae.

[vinz]

Wow... that sure is a lot of info... I think some ppl still digesting it.

Lets handle this point by point:
- CO2. Like the advice given above... get it up to 25 to 30ppm. Solenoid? What dissolution device (reactor, diffusor)?

- KH. Check the instructions again please. The Sera kit measures 1 dKH per drop not 10ppm, if I remember correctly. Similarly for AP.

- Light. 11 hrs for a new tank is too much. Try 8 or 10. Increase by 1 hr per week. Your lights start at 12pm... does your tank get any direct sunlight or is near a window? If either or this is true, you tank might be getting more light then the 11 hours. For now, try following daylight hours. Say 8am to 6pm. If you want to check the tank at night, just turn on the tank lights... a short while won't make bother the plants much.

Obeserve the plants. Some of them will 'go to sleep' once they have enough light by folding their leaves upwards. Normally their leaves will be horizontal to get maximum light. If this is happening in the middle of your lighting period, that the lighting hours + daylight hours is too long.

- Filter. You did not mention any filter pads/wool? Eheim 1260 is a pumphead, not a canister filter. Did you mean 2260?

Is the current very strong? I use a 2250 on my 6 ft and it was churning the water when brand new. To solve that, I split the output to 2 ends. That distributed the current and improved circulation. I also recommend you use an external reactor before the split to even out the CO2 distribution.

- Algae eaters. Not enough to help you at the moment. You have enough Otocinculus. Put in lots more yamatos... 4 do nuts for you. Try about 40 or more. I would put in 6 more SAEs too... but thats me.

Finally... and probably the root of your woes.

- Fertilisation. Your NO3 (nitrates) is zero? Bad. You need to maintain about 10ppm. Go get KNO3 from Dr Mallicks or Eco-Culture (sells DR Mallicks stuff, call first to check on availability. See LFS list for contact info). Dose KNO3 to raise about 10ppm 2 or 3 times a week. Same time as you dose TMG. It'll take care of K for you too. At the same time, get KH2PO4 too. And dose that to raise PO4 by 1ppm the same time you dose KNO3.

- You need to get work hard to get those algae out of there. Physically remove as much as you can. It's near impossible to starve them out without killing most of your plants first. Trim away leaves with black algae or remove entire clumps of glosso. Clean the glass. The algae eaters are there to handle what you can't remove and prevent return.

Try the above for a week and see if there is any difference and give it a few weeks to make a real difference. There are 2 main steps here:
1. Make conditions ideal for your plants to grow (lights, CO2, fert), and
2. Removal of algae.

[neon]

Vinz :

Thanks for comments.

To reply some of the things I missed (which you asked) :
- during the peak bubbling period tonight, the JBL KH test kits showed 4 dKH (1dKH = 17.8 PPM ?? , 4dKH= 71ppm) . Is it way to high ?
- Look into the CO2 chart, did not see anything KH beyond 10 PPM. Am I get it wrong again. What should be the KH PPM if the JBL reading is 4dKH ? So what the CO2 PPM with KH 4dKH and PH of 6 ?
- CO2 is using big external reactor with solenoid control
- no direct sunlight, 20ft away although facing the window
- did not notice any plant is "sleeping" as you have described.
- yes, the canister filter is 2260. Like you said, I also split the return water into two . One side outlet is like the lily flower shape (like ADA) on the right side placed 6 inch below the water surface. Did not see any plant was disturbed by this end. The second outlet is a rainbar placed at the back of the tank 6 inch above the gravel facing glass upward. I can see quite large number of small co2 bubbles from the lily shape side. The external reactor is connected before the split of the two outlets.
- I also have two inlets on each side of the tank which return to the 2260 .
- Bingo ! Just like you said, I have ordered 40 yamato and 100 malayan shrimp last saturday and to be collected this weekend.
- my NO3 was 0 could be due to 50% water change the day before. Retest my NO3 again tonight and it shows 5 mg/l (5ppm??).
- how much I need to dose my tank (680L = 6x2x2) with KNO3 for another 5PPM (to reach 10 ppm) . Right now I have only LushGro -Aqua, how much I should do to have another 5ppm of KNO3 effect before I get the KNO3 this weekend ?
- how much of Kh2PO4 to dose for my 680L tank to get 1ppm as you mentioned ?
- spot algae on the glass scrap off will it trigger the spore to propogate again ?

Thanks again.

Cheers

[ckll]

Based on this, kH=4 & pH=6 gives you 120ppm of CO2. The chart is tabulated based on 0.2 increments of pH and you can see that the difference in CO2 levels for any 0.2 pH difference is quite large. So, you need to be accurate in pH measurement to get the correct CO2 levels.

There are a lot of useful articles here so you may want to take a look, including calculation dosage levels for the fertilizers that you plan to add into the tank.

[barmby]

hi,

you seem to have the setup very correct. its only a matter of lighting period, dosing and measurement of pH and kH.

1- Use a narrow range pH test kit. Test pen if possible. I am using HANNA (You must invest money in this, no choice)

2- On dosing after your CO2 level is correct:
For every 35gal of water (its water! not tank size!) - 1/4 tsp of KNO3 gives you 6.37ppm of NO3; make your calculation on this?

For every 20gal of water - 2 rice grains of KH2PO4 is sufficent.

For traces - Add them in excess. 2 to 3 times in a week. If less lighting or less plant, decrease dosing frequency but not amount.

I took these benchmarks from previous posts, moderator, you may want to correct my stats.

Also, I always have my 3rd dose of fertilizers on the day before major water change.

[vinz]

[quote:98604edaf1="neon"]Vinz :

Thanks for comments.

To reply some of the things I missed (which you asked) :
- during the peak bubbling period tonight, the JBL KH test kits showed 4 dKH (1dKH = 17.8 PPM ?? , 4dKH= 71ppm) . Is it way to high ?
- Look into the CO2 chart, did not see anything KH beyond 10 PPM. Am I get it wrong again. What should be the KH PPM if the JBL reading is 4dKH ? So what the CO2 PPM with KH 4dKH and PH of 6 ?
- CO2 is using big external reactor with solenoid control
- no direct sunlight, 20ft away although facing the window
- did not notice any plant is "sleeping" as you have described.
- yes, the canister filter is 2260. Like you said, I also split the return water into two . One side outlet is like the lily flower shape (like ADA) on the right side placed 6 inch below the water surface. Did not see any plant was disturbed by this end. The second outlet is a rainbar placed at the back of the tank 6 inch above the gravel facing glass upward. I can see quite large number of small co2 bubbles from the lily shape side. The external reactor is connected before the split of the two outlets.
- I also have two inlets on each side of the tank which return to the 2260 .
- Bingo ! Just like you said, I have ordered 40 yamato and 100 malayan shrimp last saturday and to be collected this weekend.
- my NO3 was 0 could be due to 50% water change the day before. Retest my NO3 again tonight and it shows 5 mg/l (5ppm??).
- how much I need to dose my tank (680L = 6x2x2) with KNO3 for another 5PPM (to reach 10 ppm) . Right now I have only LushGro -Aqua, how much I should do to have another 5ppm of KNO3 effect before I get the KNO3 this weekend ?
- how much of Kh2PO4 to dose for my 680L tank to get 1ppm as you mentioned ?
- spot algae on the glass scrap off will it trigger the spore to propogate again ?

Thanks again.

Cheers[/quote:98604edaf1]

- KH. Forgot to mention previously, to be more accurate, swirl the water a little after each drop. Also make sure there are no bubbles at the tip of the bottle/dropper.

4dKH is fine. The recommended target is 4 to 6dKH. Most of the charts are in dKH, not ppm. Use the chart at Chuck's website (given above by someone else) or download and install his calculator.

- CO2 reactor. If you are getting small bubbles exiting your lily pipe, it means the current is very strong. If the bubbles pretty much dissolve inside the tank instead of escaping to the surface, you can either live with it or put some media in the reactor to help the dissolution. Bioballs or ceramic rings can do. Some people fill it up almost completely or halfway. I've never tried that, so I don't know how effective it is. OTOH, your filter output will slow in a few months time and solve the problem by itself.

- 1 mg/l = 1ppm.

- I just checked LGA formulation. If you dose 1ml to every 10l of water, you will raise about 3ppm of NO3 and 5ppm of K. You should not dose much more than this as too much K might cause problems. If your current tank is at 5ppm of NO3 before dosing LGA, then about 1.25 ml of LGA to every 10l should be sufficient.

- KNO3 and KH2PO4. See Chuck's calculators. Personally, I prefer to mix stock solutions of each and then dose like liquid fert, instead of dry dosing. You can use Chuck's calculator to figure out how much of your solution will raise how much of each nutrient.

My formula (calculated using Chuck's calculator):
* 2 table spoon of KNO3 mixed into 500ml of water. 1ml of this solution dosed to 40l of water will raise a little more then 1ppm of NO3.
* 2 table spoon of KH2PO4 mixed into 500ml of water. 1ml of this solution dosed to 40l of water will raise a little more then 1ppm of PO4.

- Spot algae... if you don't scrape, then what? :P Anyway, they will still reproduce even if you don't scrap them.

[neon]

[quote:f7a6cda346="barmby"]hi,

you seem to have the setup very correct. its only a matter of lighting period, dosing and measurement of pH and kH.

1- Use a narrow range pH test kit. Test pen if possible. I am using HANNA (You must invest money in this, no choice)

2- On dosing after your CO2 level is correct:
For every 35gal of water (its water! not tank size!) - 1/4 tsp of KNO3 gives you 6.37ppm of NO3; make your calculation on this?

For every 20gal of water - 2 rice grains of KH2PO4 is sufficent.

For traces - Add them in excess. 2 to 3 times in a week. If less lighting or less plant, decrease dosing frequency but not amount.

I took these benchmarks from previous posts, moderator, you may want to correct my stats.

Also, I always have my 3rd dose of fertilizers on the day before major water change.[/quote:f7a6cda346]

Hi Barmby.

Thanks for your comment . My further query below :

you seem to have the setup very correct. its only a matter of lighting period, dosing and measurement of pH and kH.

1- Use a narrow range pH test kit. Test pen if possible. I am using HANNA (You must invest money in this, no choice)
OK, I think I will invest one.
2- On dosing after your CO2 level is correct:
For every 35gal of water (its water! not tank size!) - 1/4 tsp of KNO3 gives you 6.37ppm of NO3; make your calculation on this?
My tank is 6x2x2 ~ 179.5 US gal. Do I dose base on whole 179.5gal basis, or base on amount of water change basis ? Am I right to say that I have to include the current bioload NO3 measurement also to achieve the 20-30ppm ?

For every 20gal of water - 2 rice grains of KH2PO4 is sufficent.
Do I base on water change or everytime on 179.5 gal.
For traces - Add them in excess. 2 to 3 times in a week. If less lighting or less plant, decrease dosing frequency but not amount.
I intended to use LushGro-Aqua, do I base on water change or 179gal again ?

I took these benchmarks from previous posts, moderator, you may want to correct my stats.

Also, I always have my 3rd dose of fertilizers on the day before major water change
What is 3rd dose relative to ? within a week , 2 weeks ? Why dose it before the water change as it will waste the trace , won't it ?

[vinz]

base on actual water volume which is probably about 140 USG.

[neon]

[quote:db328a48de="vinz"]base on actual water volume which is probably about 140 USG.[/quote:db328a48de]
Vinz:

Using some aquarium calculator web site it calculated ~ 179.5 gal (us) without gravel. If included gravel of avg 4 inch (3 inch front, 5 inch back), the volume calculated around ~149 gal (us).

The calculator for light also suggested :

Volume low light plant medium light plant high light plant
- 149 gal 299w 448w 598w
- 179 gal 359w 538w 718w

Should I follow the 149 gal (with 4 inch gravel) lighting requirement ? If so, I am using 2 x 150w MH which right now can spread over this 6ft tank by hanging up 1.5-2ft above the tank, where my lighting requirement is just met.

Please advise. Thanks !

Cheers

[juggler]

Neon: Out of interest, you may also like to read this article about lighting Lighting as a Function of Tank Size in the Aquaria of Takashi Amano

[vinz]

You don't have to be so accurate. Otherwise, you also have to account for the space from water surface to the lip of the tank, the water inside the filter, the water displaced by fishes,plants, dritwood, etc.

I think I know which calculator you are using. Forget it, it's unrealistic. For large tanks, you do not need 3WPG. I think Juggler's link will show you this too. About 2 to 2.5 WPG of PL or FL is enough. My own rule = 3 rows of PL for a 2 ft deep tank.

MH do not need to folow the rule. A single 150W will punch thru all the way to the bottom of a 2ft tank. You just enough of them to cover the length of the tank... usually 1 per every 2 to 2.5 ft of length.

[neon]

[quote:857b47ed="vinz"]You don't have to be so accurate. Otherwise, you also have to account for the space from water surface to the lip of the tank, the water inside the filter, the water displaced by fishes,plants, dritwood, etc.

I think I know which calculator you are using. Forget it, it's unrealistic. For large tanks, you do not need 3WPG. I think Juggler's link will show you this too. About 2 to 2.5 WPG of PL or FL is enough. My own rule = 3 rows of PL for a 2 ft deep tank.

MH do not need to folow the rule. A single 150W will punch thru all the way to the bottom of a 2ft tank. You just enough of them to cover the length of the tank... usually 1 per every 2 to 2.5 ft of length.[/quote:857b47ed]

Vinz:

A few calculator web site yield the same volume of 179.5 gal (US). By reducing the 4inch depth due to gravel, the calculators yield almost the same as your 140 gal (us) .

What is the ideal NO3 level ? With your LGA on NO3 calculation using 1.25 ml per 10ml,I will get 3ppm. My 140 gal = 1.25x 14=21ml to dose ,
NO3 = 3.75 ppm . Plus the 5ppn in the tank = 3.75+5 = 8.75 ppm. Is this correct ?

Cheers

[vinz]

Hmmmm... you should re-look at your post.

I said 1ml LGA to 10l water to raise 3ppm of NO3. You are calculating 1.25ml to 10USG. 140USG is about 530l. Take it to be about 500l. You will need to dose 50ml to raise 3ppm of NO3.

LGA and TMG contents are similar in quantity, so i'm using TMG recommended dosage as the recommended dosage for LGA. You need to tweak to fit your tanks requirements.

You should try to maintain at least 5 to 10ppm NO3 in the tank. By the way, hobbyist NO3 test kits are not very realiable. Observe the plants for effect.

[neon]

[quote:d01b0bd023="vinz"]Hmmmm... you should re-look at your post.

I said 1ml LGA to 10l water to raise 3ppm of NO3. You are calculating 1.25ml to 10USG. 140USG is about 530l. Take it to be about 500l. You will need to dose 50ml to raise 3ppm of NO3.

LGA and TMG contents are similar in quantity, so i'm using TMG recommended dosage as the recommended dosage for LGA. You need to tweak to fit your tanks requirements.

You should try to maintain at least 5 to 10ppm NO3 in the tank. By the way, hobbyist NO3 test kits are not very realiable. Observe the plants for effect.[/quote:d01b0bd023]

Vinz:

From juggler excel calculator for LGA (courtesy of juggler) :

Tank size (L) 500
Aqua 1000 drops = 50 ml (20drops=1ml)

LushGro - Aqua

S/n    Element	Compo (g/L)  daily ppm  weekly ppm
1      N         7.179        0.71790    5.02530
2      NO3       31.793       3.17928    22.25494
3      K         51.711       5.17110    36.19770
4      S         16.667       1.66670    11.66690
5      Mg        2.942        0.29420    2.05940
6      Fe EDTA   0.21879      0.02188    0.15315
7      Mn        0.612        0.06120    0.42840
8      B         0.314        0.03140    0.21980
9      Zn        0.092        0.00920    0.06440
10     Cu        0.025        0.00250    0.01750
11     Mo        0.016        0.00160    0.01120
12     Other minerals/ vitamins	Traces

As you mentioned recommended NO3 is 5 to 10ppm. From 50ml dosing will yield 22.25 ppm. I am assuming your recommendation is for daily dosage of 3 ppm. Do I dose daily of 3ppm or one shot 50ml of 22ppm. Would the 22ppm stress the fish and the plant ?

Appreciate if you can give a list of recommended ppm for the above micro and macro . Thanks in advance.

Cheers

[vinz]

Neon,

Again, read the data/info correctly first. Get your numbers right. I have edited the post to show the table correctly.

There is daily ppm and weekly ppm. The daily ppm is the amount raised per dose of 50ml to 500l. The weekly is the total raised if you dose 50ml daily. The weekly numbers assumes nothing is taken up by the plants.

As you can see the daily dosage is very close to my numbers. I just compared them to my own spread sheet and the numbers tally.

You need to see what your tank needs. If you really want to know your tanks uptake of NO3, dose and measure with your test kit. Then you can decide how often and how much to dose.

[neon]

Vinz,

Thanks for tabulating the number and the clarification. I got what your meant.

As for the other micro and macro recommended PPM , are those number shown by the excel number will be the desired ppm. Or there is/are some need to add or reduce/watch out for ?

Cheers

[vinz]

Watch the Fe and K. K is about right. Fe is a bit low, but then it depends on your substrate too - whether there is Fe in it.

The rest don't matter much.

Another 2 to watch is Ca and Mg. Don't depend on LGA for those. Tap water has some, and regular water changes may be sufficient. Some tanks need more, some don't. These are usually dose separately.ome ppl simply put in a smal bag of coral chips or oyster shells.

[barmby]

hi,

I believe Vincent has already answered your query on dosing.

On my dosing rate, I dose three times a week. My third dose for the week will be the day before water change.