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Thread: Under Gravel Heater?

  1. #1

    Under Gravel Heater?

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    Hi,

    Is it okay to put under gravel heater for planted tank? Will it damaged the roots of the plants?

    Regards

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    Hi,
    From some knowledge i got when i ask the staff from pet safari, he says that gravel heater is not necessary, plants grow well in cooler conditions and will need a cooler fan if using substrate heater. this is what he told me, say that without a substrate heater, the plants will be fine. Anyone please correct if this information is incorrect.

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    the heating coil is supposed to keep the roots from getting cold feet. I'm sure most of us who uses it, will comment that the roots alway stays white. Dennerle theory is that the heat created by the coil will create a circulation which will push nutrient up.. (have to refer to the dennerle plant book for the actual writeup)

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    Hi,
    Must not be mistaken that the heat produce is very hot. What it actually does is to create a mild temperature difference to allow water movement in the substrate column. With that it is said to promote healthy roots growth or often time we call it prevent 'cold feet'. Also must note to use the correct wattage for the tank size. Remember it is have a little warmth not to cook the root! It is best use with a chiller to cool the water column because the principle works on a two different temperature zone therefore water current is form (of-course very unnoticeable one lah...)
    As for izit really works. I personally have tried and it is perfect. I have it in my previous 3ft tank. I use the Dennerle Under Gravel Heater with the Deponit Mix. and a chiller to cool the water column. Results is, the root network is very dense, milky white roots, strong and robust. Actually has a hard time digging them up when I tear down that tank. The plants (leaf) are healthy and robust too.
    So the decision to use is yours.
    Now I am using the Amano approach, which lies in the use of ADA power sand. Also similar principle but more naturally, that is without the use of cable(electricity) to create gentle water movement in the substrate column. Instead using water pressure that acts on these little power sand pebbles (they create air space, can actually see small gaps)Arr...kinda hard to explain them lah.
    BTW, stagnant water in the substrate prevent flow of exhausted nutrients from the root to be filtered out by the filter, nitrifying them. At the same time providing replace loss nutrient to the roots.
    Just my 2 cents comment.

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    There are 2 camps on the whole under gravel heater issue... Some recommend it others don't. Essentially though, your plants are gonna grow given the right conditions with or without the undergravel heater. The main arguement is whether they will grow better. Unfortunately, I think this whole issue is debatable.

    As For me, I've got tanks with and without it. I would say that the plants with it seem to do slightly better. Then again my perception could be skewed simply because I think that the heater should help...

    At the end of the day, if you've got the $$$ there really isn't much problem putting it there... but if cash is a constraint, leaving it out isn't gonna hurt the tank much either.

    Simon,

    As for white roots, whats the significance of white roots?
    Allen

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    white roots = healthy roots structure?

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    Aren't roots SUPPOSED to be white (with or without substrate heating)? This thing is developed in western countries where they have to heat the water to maintain a certain temperature. The substrate tend to be un-heated and falls below the plant's physiological temperature. IMO, it contridicts in our tropical climate that we need to heat the substrate but have to cool the water. But hey, if you think it works great for you and you have the moeny to spend, who's stopping you?

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    Hi CK,
    It is not really the western world or ours but a difference in temperature between the water and substrate column will allow very gentle water movement. Be it warmer in either water or substrate column, as long as there is a difference. Well, see it this way that it is not the heater thingie but rather the principle behind it. Which is why Amano uses power sand which uses water pressure to do this job. Also you do not want to have poorly developed roots and worst sometime decomposed.

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    CK, white means healthy.. all the plants i remove for my 4ft have white long roots... even for foregrd plants.. yeah, if only u guys got the extra cash and wanna try out something new, i guess.. it's jus another optional equipment.. with/without the coil, plants still grows.. for better or worse.. very hard to determine

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    Hi Alan,
    but really, if you want circulation in the substrate, why not just use a UGF with slow flow?

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    Simon,
    all the plants that I ever grew before have white roots (other than Java fern, moss and the obvious) All my foreground plants (Echinodorus tennellus, Ecleocharis acicuraris, Glossostigma elantinoides, Echinodorus quadricostatus, etc) have white roots. It doesn't matter what I grow them in (mud, clay, kitty litter, sand, lonestar, vermiculite, cocopeat, peat, expanded clay, water, haven't tried cow dung yet). Dunno what other plants dun have white roots and can only grow white roots with substrate heating. Maybe carrot, if you can get it to grow underwater... but seriously, white roots is not a good way to judge whether the substrate heating is effective. Even root length, it depends on other parameters such as substrate depth, general nutrition of the plant etc.

    Yes, it is controversial... Yes, I am skeptical. No, I am not even saying whether substrate heating is good/useful or not. I am just saying that you dun need it to grow white roots in aquatic plants.

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    err.. sorry.. stupid qns.. i thought all plant roots are white in color.. at least that is what i see from those plants at LFS. got other colors meh?
    Let us work together to preserve the world for our children to inherit by being responsible to our surroundings. Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, bubbles and memories.

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    ya, i understand yr point of view.. wat I'm trying to state is that, by looking at the roots.. u know if the plant is healthy to an extend.. the use of a heating coil doesnt always guarantee the health of a plant or a success to a good planted tank.. i think everyone agrees that with/without the use of one, the plant still grow.. controversial there always will be

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    Hi CK,

    Ai ya....pls read carefully lah... when we say healthy roots we are saying not just its color only! look here's what I wrote the last few post ...."Results is, the root network is very dense, milky white roots, strong and robust...." I agree with you that almost all plants we came across has white colored roots but these like you said is not the best way to tell if they are healthy. So you see, if you read the other characteristic I have mentioned then you know what we are trying to say here loh.
    BTW, as to why I am not using Under Gravel Filter? Firstly I have not tried that but has read that it is not very good. Maybe...I guess it is too fast a flow. I dunno? Anyone can enlighten me? Also I keep saying is that we want to acheive a tiny movement of water not a filteration, or better see it as a non stagnant substrate. Hope it is clearer now.
    Anyway...as long as that particular method works for your tank than don't upset it by experimenting too much. It is more for new set up that you wanna try. This is my 2 cents conclusion from all these past problems encounter with different set up. So now limiting myself to just one.[]
    happy Planting

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    Hey Alan,
    Hek hek hek... I did read the milky, dense etc part... Dun know about you, but I am more interested in the foliage than the roots.
    but really, if I remember correctly, you had two different tanks last time with two totally different setups. The one with substrate heating have all the bells and whistles to it, notebly a pressurised CO2 system. And the other, well... the other is your hex tank with DIY CO2 which you could not be bothered to change. If really want to compare, have to setup a tank with two sides; one with substrate heating and the other nothing. In that way, we will then see the real effects of substrate heating.
    regarding the UGF, maybe if ADA comes up with one, I am sure you will be one of the first to grab.[]

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    Had a 3ft with substrade heater and a 2ft without. Both the plants are doing well but the 3ft plants tends to grow faster then the 2ft one.

    Regarding the root network, the base fert and the gravel plays a more impt role then the substrade heater. Both the tank has Co2 cylinder at 2bps.

    Talking about the substrade heater is a very debating subject. It's more on personal preference i find. Dennerle says it prevent cold feet to the plant roots tusk maintaining the root system to be at top notch always.

    If you got the money to burn, why not? The substrade heater, heats the underneath of the substrade upwards and the water from the filter will push the water back in other words conventional heating.

    What matter most is if we are happy with the plants we grow, are they nice and healthy and so on.

    Yes Jellydot, whatever method does right for you, go for it. One man's poison is another man's food =)

    My 2cts Worth
    Cheers!

    Benetay

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    personally
    i find it doesn't make a difference
    just ime

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    Hi CK,
    Well....sometime it is hard to said anything to one thingie. Schools of thoughts is what we call. Some belives are difficult to change.
    As to the hex. tank you said I don't border much, mmm....not totally right though maybe the impression it gives. That tank is still around and is doing fine. Ai ya...I'll stop here lah...if not it will never end.
    And don't 'suan' me for the ADA I belives in because it is not fair to Amano who has spent years in researching planted thingie. Maybe it is the price that turn off many of us.
    Anyway your point to my comment is noted and have nothing to say.

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