bga... how I got rid of it (& brought it back)

[toledosun]

just thought I'll share what happened in my tank recently.

After major rescaping exercise, adding riccia, MM and pellia (already had cryts in the tank), I started dosing one cap ful of lush-gro aqua in my 300 litre tank daily. Thought that was about right since instructions say one capful per 100 litres (guess I miscalculated big time)!

[added on 29-1-04: actually, my miscalculation was bigger than I thought. My tank measures 100 cmx 30cm x 45cm = 135l)!!!

Things looked great for a few days and crypts bubbled when the afternoon sun added its light to the tank.

Then ... bga came! Tried planrbrain's method of removal of bga and 50% water, adding KNO3 and total blackout. After 3 days, bga gone, started dosing one capful again. This time, did daily checks to ensure NO3 level not at zero but.... bga returned within a week.

Did the blackout thing again. Same result, bga gone after 3 days. Returned again when I started dosing one capful of ferlizers.

All these while, kept NO3 just above zero by addition of KNO3.

Tried it 3rd time round. This time, happened to talk to Azmi at eco-culture. He pointed out that I was using way too much fertilizer. After the blackout period, changed dosage to 1 ml daily and.... viola, no more bga. I've been bga free for 2 weeks!

lessons I learnt from this:

1) plantbrain's method works fine so no need for anti-biotics;

2) excess fertilizer in the water may cause bga.

My substrate is plain gravel (with just a few fertilizer balls in the corner where the crypts were). All fertilizers in the water column can be directly attributed to my addition of Lush-gro aqua. When I OD(ed) on the fertilizer, bga came. When I cut the fertilization by 90%, bga went. Throughout this period, No3 was present (tested using the sera kit and the level was between brown to slightly red).

moral of my story is... everything in moderation and when in doubt, ask for help

[toledosun]

changed my heading abit just so that you'll know.... it's back.

After 3 weeks of no BGA, I decided to adjust my fertilization regime. I was having trouble with those powdery algae that sticks to the glass. Thought I'll try and increase the amount of fertization to see if the riccia/pellia combo can "outcompete the algae. During the 3 weeks, I was dosing about 1/2 ml of fertilizer every other day.

Anyway, added 1 ml of Lushgro Aqua on Thursday to my 40 gallon tank. Added another 2 ml on Saturday when I topped up the water. On Sunday, noticed parts of my pellia was pearling. On Monday, realized that the part that was pearling on Sunday had BGA on it.

So, it's back to the old blackout for me. For those who's wondering what's my tank parameter like at the moment, it's as follows:

lighting period: 6-10 a.m. and 6-12 midnight (but my tank is in the hall and near windows which gets the afternoon sun)
Kh: 2.5
ph: 6
CO2: 2 bubbles per second
nitrite: unmeasurable
nitrate: about 5-10

again, nothing else was changed except the fertilization regime.

[PeterGwee]

Excess fertilizer causing BGA? I have excess in my tank week in week out and no sign of algae. I'll tell you this its not excess but a lack of something in your case. You might have everything for a start but as the NO3 get used up and finally bottom out for more than a day or so, that is when the trouble came. Cutting back the fertilizer properly work after that as your plants are pretty much stunted from the lack of NO3 and are not going to use much. But you'll need to keep up on things after your plants get going or else you are going to have to do the blackout routine over and over again..(as if its norm.. ). The NO3 kit you are using is not good for the purpose. You are better dosing the estimative index way and keeping up on things as they get used up.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[toledosun]

it's possible that the excess fertilizers led to the NO3 dropping faster than what's good for the tank. there's no way for me to be sure since my NO3 level fluctuates from below 5 to 10.

so perhaps I should say " excessive fertilization leds to bga if NO3 level is not kept above zero" ?

[naturetan]

Do you dose PO4? If not, dose it generously, and make sure your NO3 doesn't go too low. Give a bit of extra dose to be safe. Ensure that your CO2 is at a good level throughout the whole photo-period(18hrs ??). Make sure your K don't run low too.

I'm not sure how does the sunlight affect your tank, but it seems to me your photoperiod is too long. You may experiment with this if above doesn't work. Cut off your sunlight to keep your tank cooler, adjust your light to 10hrs, say 1->11pm, and dose as above. See whether condition improve. Monitor this for about a month.

[toledosun]

thanks for your suggestion naturetan. I did think of getting PO4 and adding that to the tank. Decided against it because I've decided that my recent problems were caused largely by my "more is better" attitude.

In the past, when I only dosed TMG once a month for my crypts and echindorus, and fed my fishes liberally with dried shrimps, my maintenance work was minimal.

Now, because of my desire to see riccia bubble, I bought Lushgro Aqua and dosing aggressively. With more ferts, bought KNO3 and started adding that. When that drove my NO3 level up, bought K2SO4 and started adding that. With all those going at full speed, changed one set of light from 2x24w to 1x55w to complement my current 2x36w (40 gallon tank) to provide more lighting. Needless to say, increased CO2 level to 3 bubble per second as well.

The only result I have to show for the above efforts are:
1) some dead fishes;
2) lots of dead shrimps;
3) 4 episodes of BGA;
4) lots of algae on glass leading to need to clean glass every other day;
5) one empty pocket.

So... I've decided to:
a) reduce lighting period from current 6-10 a.m., 6-12 midnight (with lots of indirect sunlight between 12-6 p.m.) to 6-8 a.m., 6-10 p.m. or lesser;
b) reduce fert regime and feed fishes more liberally

will update you guys after a month.

[juggler]

Wow. With the engine running at such high speed, you did not feed PO4 as fuel? Do give it a try. P is a major nutrient like your N and K. I am quite sure your current PO4 level is low.

BTW - Lushgro-Aqua has NO3 as well. Must take into consideration when dosing a lot of it.

[vinz]

The photoperiod is too long. Sacrifice either the morning or evening lights.

If you like "more is better" then it has to be more of everything... including NO3 and PO4, but balanced of course. You need to find out what is the "ambient" level of No3 in your tank. PO4 is most likely to be running low.

[toledosun]

I'm sure you're right about my PO4 level. If my cruise mode doesn't work after a month, I'll get some PO4 and go back to my high speed, max bubble mode

[naturetan]

Actually, it's quite common to have BGA problem when PO4 isn't enough. I've this problem for a short period when I experimented my fertiliser dosing, and have seen tanks likewise too. BGA seems to be quite easy to take care, just like spot algae to me. PO4 works wonder and will definitely give an extra boost of bubbling to your plants.

Sometimes, if problem persist for too long, the dreadful BBA might set in. So be extra careful.

[PeterGwee]

You get BGA in a low N environment...not when the PO4 is low. When PO4 is low, nitrogen uptake slows down a lot and that is when the buildup might occur. Toledosun, dropping the lights down to 2w/g would help alot in your case as the margin of error for skipping a dose is greater and less damage is done if it occurs. A weekly dosage of N,P,K and traces coupled with large weekly water changes is enough for such tanks and you get to be lazy as the growth is slower and more nice. Think about it..

For a 300 litre tank like yours with 2w/g:

Prune and scrub the tank real well
Clean filter if necessary.
50% water change.
3/4 teaspoon of KNO3 (around 8-9ppm per dose) once a week.
1/2 teaspoon of K2SO4 (around 4-5ppm per dose) once a week.
Slightly less than 1/8 teaspoon of KH2PO4 (around 1-1.3ppm per dose) once a week.
Traces 15ml once a week.
CO2 keep at 20-30ppm range throughout the entire photoperiod. (Very important).
Repeat weekly.

Most kits we use are not accurate and the margin of error is pretty great for the range we need which is why folks run into loads of problems when they believe entirely what they get from the test results.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[toledosun]

actually... just realized how badly I screwed up. My tank is only 135l (don't know what made me think it's 300l)!!

come to think of it, as juggler pointed out, Lushgro Aqua has NO3 as well and since I was overdosing daily, there should have been sufficient NO3. This is especially since I was also adding KNO3.

anyway... looked at my tank this morning. there's no riccia bubbles, no algae on glass (yet) and no bga. looks peaceful. if things stay this way, I'll leave things alone for 2 months. By that time, whatever doesn't grow... goes. whatever grows... remain

[naturetan]

[quote:22397b934e="toledosun"]come to think of it, as juggler pointed out, Lushgro Aqua has NO3 as well and since I was overdosing daily, there should have been sufficient NO3. This is especially since I was also adding KNO3.[/quote:22397b934e]
That's what I think also, with huge amount you mentioned in your previous posts, can't be low in N. If I'm not wrong, Lushgro has quite a reasonably high amount of NO3 if you make the right dosage. It should be sufficient alone. But the PO4 part is lacking which is the cause of the problem. That's why people whom usually dose Lushgro will supplement it with PO4.

[toledosun]

hey naturetan, this may support your argument. this extract is from the following link: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/doc...t/phosyc.shtml


Cyanobacteria and phosphate? In marine ecosystems, cyanobacteria have a much higher rate of phosphatase production than algae. "This enhanced enzyme gives cyanobacteria an advantage over algae in P-limited conditions in the presence of labile organic matter [in Florida Bay]" one observer noted. Perhaps there is a clue here to the blooms of cyanobacteria we sometimes encounter in freshly set-up freshwater aquaria also. The sheets of cyanobacteria seem to subside as algae and the biofilm become established, and as PO4 begins to accumulate in sediments. In our freshwater aquaria, PO4 is rarely limited, except in newly-set up systems. Could cyanobacteria have a similar phosphate-scavenging advantage in freshwater aquaria?

[paranoid]

Please pardon me. What's bga? I deduce its algae? My java moss have quite a bit. They are like "greenish cotton wool". My water also does have a tint of greenish colour. What should i do? Thanks!

[naturetan]

[quote:642fb86bf0="toledosun"]In our freshwater aquaria, PO4 is rarely limited, except in newly-set up systems. Could cyanobacteria have a similar phosphate-scavenging advantage in freshwater aquaria?[/quote:642fb86bf0]
I think that matured tank are more stable and less prone to problem, not only because of cyanobact, but it also contain higher amount of micro-organisms, helpful in giving off several degree of compounds for the plants. But this is very useful under a natural set-up aquarium environment.

The scenario change when the aquarium become CO2 enriched. Plants starts to grow faster, thus turning nutrient hungry. When they're depleted from food, they can't grow well and turn unhealthy because of their growth rate, and starts showing signs of deficiency. When plants don't thrive, algae usually would.

PO4, though available in some amount from food and gravel, are usually not enough for CO2 tank. Unless you overstock your fishes and there's not enough plants, if not, usually it become depleted quite fast especially under such long lighting period. The uptake of PO4 can go up to about 0.4ppm/day if your lighting is high. Depending on the gravel for supply, is usually insufficient.

Some AQ guys have dosed >3X of recommended PO4 without any algae issue. I'm also quite generous about my PO4 dosage, since it's so cheap and save me the trouble from BGA/Spots/poor growth...

[naturetan]

[quote:06add6cf8d="paranoid"]Please pardon me. What's bga? I deduce its algae? My java moss have quite a bit. They are like "greenish cotton wool". My water also does have a tint of greenish colour. What should i do? Thanks![/quote:06add6cf8d]
Yes, that's algae. Post your tank parameters/condition on a new thread. Some helpful guys will be glad to work this out.

[superman]

Sorry, im a little out. :P
Just want to know is KN03 refer to Nitrogen?
And is P04 refer to Potasium?
And also what is K?
I know that frozen blood worm and fish waste contain KN03, can I
just keep more fishes in the tank and feed them with more
blood worm in order to keep KN03 above 0 and add a little
P04 to balance up? [/b]

[albert]

superman,

KNO3 - Potassium Nitrate
PO4 - phosphate
K - Potassium

NO3 is consumed by the plants and yes, it can be produce through fish waste and left-over food because of the nitrogen cycle. But not K.

Phosphate is contain in most fish food. Read the content on the label and can be easily found. The plants only need a relatively small amount of phosphate as compared to NO3. Therefore dosing of PO4 is not necessary unless you have high lighting and high CO2.

Excess NO3 and PO4 encourage the growth of algae!!

There are lots of postings on dosing in the forum. Do spend some time to do some reading.

Hope this helps.

Albert